Muslim Migrants Want to Hide Behind a Veil

From the viewpoint of Kacem, the West offered Moroccan immigrants and Muslims in general privileges unavailable in their home countries, linking the escalating problems of integration to religious beliefs he says have no place within secular Western societies.

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Blogger , performer, author and activist. 116 comments

Thursday, July 29th, 2010


Skin color, gender or belief cannot be a barrier to achieving integration within European or Western societies which are secular, democratic, multicultural and allow for a richness and diversity of races and backgrounds. Most of migrant communities within these societies have been able to melt into their host nations completely, adapt and grow without having to abandon their beliefs, languages, food or drink habits. Therefore they have been able to establish themselves within those societies and make important achievements. They were not barred from participating in politics and are involved in the decision-making processes. They have been allowed to assume high and sensitive responsibilities, something they probably wouldn’t have dreamed of in their countries of origin. They are athletes, artists, ministers and heads of parliaments, businessmen and academics.

Concerning the Moroccan and Muslim communities and the issue of integration, I think it is better to look at the arguments that irritate most European public opinions and that constantly try to depict Muslims as being persecuted and oppressed victims; -as a communist that does not enjoy individual freedoms, like the freedom to wear the burqa and other fashionable cloaks (probably to hide the bruises and wounds left by the husbands or brothers on the body of Muslim women). As long as they (Muslims) are the owners of the “absolute truth,” any encroachment that is susceptible to anger their one and only God may tomorrow lead to new demands asking for the closure of bars for example or for making kissing in public or making love unlawful, under the pretext that their beliefs, religious and moral senses have been hurt.

Despite all this, hostility directed against Muslim migrants is explained by things such as racism or xenophobia. We often forget (perhaps voluntarily) that the behavior and actions of these migrants are absolutely in opposition with the values of the host countries who paid heavy prices and long bloody years of struggle to consecrate human values and universal human rights and to ensure the continuity of the democratic system of governance.

One of these behaviors that are backward and the product of the Muslim migrant’s mindset are the activities of Islamist groups operating in many European countries such as France, Belgium and others. They are mostly active during election campaigns directing messages at all Muslims, urging them to boycott elections and ask for the Sharia Law to be implemented, considering that Europe’s democracy, which allows for the common citizen to run for the highest office for example, is blasphemous and contrary to the law of their Beautiful God.

Most of the Moroccan immigrants now settled abroad, did not migrate there initially for educational purposes and did not enroll directly into particular jobs. Most of them instead went there looking to sell hard labor for money and with little knowledge about the host countries’ language, belief, customs and traditions. They at best ended up cramped in huge neighborhoods with other migrants. They clung to a rigid lifestyle for years without integrating. They just kept answering their bodily desires while selling their labor. Their children do not seek to enter schools or if they do, drop out early, constituting a backlog for the work force. Some of them practice prostitution, theft and rioting. This serves as an incentive for parents to push their children towards religion, and therefore extremism and the rejection of the host country’s culture!

The Islamization of Europe is one of the problems that increases the size of hostility toward Moroccan and Muslim immigrants at large. It is such that we now hear and read on some websites belonging to the Arab community living in Europe terms like the “Islamic Republic of Europe,” and comments that announce the near death of the European civilization, citing the low birth rate among European families as opposed to the massive amount of Islamic migration into European nations! A number of ancient churches were transformed into mosques… How far will the patience of secular European citizens go?

Radical Islamic movements represent the true nature of Islam, given that they do not take into account the interests of any parties and rely instead on the interpretation of unambiguous religious texts from the Koran and the Sunna (the Prophet’s tradition). These movements do not act in the open and spread most of their messages through blogs and social networks, calling for a confrontation against other religions and beliefs and demanding the application of Sharia Law.

The demands of Muslims are incompatible with the European culture. These demands are based on an “absolute truth”. All those who differ shall be called kaafir (infidels) upon which the divine retribution and the contempt of the whole community shall fall. God bestowed knowledge and light upon Muslims, therefore their religious specificity is supposed to be respected, even if it contradicts the most basic human right principles, such as the right to life and to difference, otherwise the Islamic sword is ready to answer the call of Allah!

Swirly divider

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Translated by Hisham Khribchi from المهاجرون يطالبون بأزياء تنكرية!

Posted on Thursday, July 29th, 2010

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116 comments on “Muslim Migrants Want to Hide Behind a Veil”

  1. Maura Smith-Mitsky

    This is great! I love the third paragraph in particular. I never thought of it that way, Kacem. You are keeping me full of fresh ideas.


  2. I was first wondering if this piece was written by Ayan Hirshi or Geert Wilders. It almost concentrates all the islamophobic and mainstream (and even respectable citing Shomsky) racism against muslim immigrants in the west. It doesn’t worth chalenging or arguing since there is no reflexion here, being mere cheap nauseaous propaganda..


    • Incidentally (and I think Kacem knows this), I almost entirely reject the ideas in this essay. This is a test of Talk Morocco being a forum for free speech. Thoughts?


      • In my opinion it is right to say the Dutch anti-Islam couple Wilders and Ayaan will not disagree with this article. And it is a very important line of thought. To dismiss it as cheap nauseous propaganda.. indicates you have no arguments… and having no valid arguments leaves you only one small step from surrender.

        Wilders and Ayaan do have arguments and, this is important, they follow a popular sentiment. The analysis of their arguments and the content of the sentiment they embrace is crucial for the understanding of the relation between the western world and Islam, and the Maghreb.

        If the expression of the ideas of Wilders and Ayaan is seen as a test of Talk Morocco being a forum for free speech then I wonder what is the problem? What is so dangerous about these ideas? Could a routine dismissal as propaganda be enough to silence them voices? Would be very counter productive.
        I do hope the inclination to strangle their line of thought will be suppressed for that will be useless. Instead it should be dismantled together with the ideology of their opponents for I think the two are entangled. Won’t be easy though.


      • Hirsi Ali (why does a woman get referred to by her first name?) has been known to lie, but aside from that, she’s speaking from some experience. Wilders is nothing more than a populist racist.

        So yeah, while I support free speech, I’d probably draw the line at outright racism in this particular forum. I was hesitant even to publish this piece, knowing that the author is not speaking from experience and is quite possibly just parroting right-wing sentiment, but in the end, I feel that it has value in stirring up debate.


      • Jillian,

        And how could the author possibly parrot right wing sentiment since he has no experience whatsoever mingling with right wingers??????????

        What group of right wingers are you referring to in the first place?

        in Morocco we have blood thirsty Islamists who are trying but you can hardly equivalent those with right wingers in the US though you might draw some similarities in their agendas when it comes to “God’s will”.

        The author is defending atheism views how can he possibly be with either of these group.

        If you accuse Kacem to lack in experience what experience do you yourself have and what makes you talk in such condescending way?


      • Najat,

        I don’t dispute Kacem’s views as an atheist, and I accept that his views toward Islam come from experience. To be clear, I dispute his views on Moroccan and Muslim emigrants to Europe. The Muslim community in Europe is not remotely a monolith; yes, those like Kacem described most certainly exist, I don’t deny that. But to describe a group of human beings as unfit for European values is simply insulting.

        My observation (not accusation) that Kacem is lacking in experience comes from the fact that I don’t believe (and he can correct me if I’m wrong), as Mahdi said, that Kacem has spent much time in Europe.

        The “right-wingers” I’m referring to are those that someone else in this thread referred to: Geert Wilders and the rest of the Islamophobic racist crowd.


      • I should add that I find it frustrating that often, the same people who demonize Islam are ready to support the views of Christian extremists, solely because they too hate Islam. Perhaps those Christian extremists are less likely than their Muslim (extremist) counterparts to strap on a bomb, but frankly, I think they’re just as dangerous, in that (in Europe and the US) they have the power to influence policy for generations to come.

        Thus, the demonization of Islam but not Christianity is somewhat disingenuous. Both, when applied to politics, are incredibly dangerous.


      • In what twisted world is it “racist” to criticize Islam?


      • It’s not the criticism of Islam I take issue with, it’s the grouping of all Moroccan emigrants into one category I have a problem with.


      • it’s the grouping of all Moroccan emigrants into one category I have a problem with.

        And I think we can all agree with that. Still…that would be a sweeping generalization or a blanket statement, not racism! There’s no such thing as a “Moroccan race”. There are Amazighs, Sahrawis, and Arab wannabes.

        I haven’t yet put my finger on the passage that troubles you. I didn’t see anyone portray Moroccan emigrants as a monolith. There was talk about “Muslims”, and those admittedly put themselves in one category (above all the rest, that is) before anyone else does it for them. There’s nothing racist about that. Islam is a choice, not a fatality. Kacem and myself were “born Muslims”. We’re now labeled kouffar by Muslims.

        You trivialize the real and tragic issue that is racism with your moral relativism. And loosen up a little. When you’re trying to paint a picture, you’re bound to resort to the occasional generalization (out of a momentary lapse in alertness rather than malice). You do it all the time yourself.


      • Samira, race is not a biological concept. It is a social construct, thus the act or concept of “racism” can exist toward any group. Would you prefer I used the term “bigotry”?


      • I know. But there is no such thing as a Muslim race. I’m sure you would find it ridiculous if criticism of Christianity, Taoism or Communism were considered “racism”.

        So…yes please! Stick to bigotry. And remember that it is as bigoted to view all Islam in a positive light as it is to view it negatively. The bigots in this case are probably going to be the dogmatic ones who view Islam as a God-sent perfect model of society.


      • I’m sure you would find it ridiculous if criticism of Christianity, Taoism or Communism were considered “racism”.

        Again, I’m not talking about criticism of Islam, I’m talking about generalizations made about a group of people (Moroccan Muslim migrants) that had racist or racialist aspects. If the group had been, for example, Moroccan Jews or Sudanese Christians, I would’ve also called it racism.

        You’re missing my point again and again, Samira. I don’t view Islam positively.


      • Maura Smith-Miysky

        Wow. The above discussions are great. I like their civil and respectful natures. I don’t have anything to add now. Carry on!


      • It has become a fashion to criticize and hate on islam… wouldn’t you say so Samira???

        Samira remember the day of judgement when you stand infront of Allah(SWT) these Atheist won’t protect you from the wrath of Allah(swt), what will save you is your iman, you knowledge of Quran and your deeds. Cheerleading these Atheist will get you nowhere and when you become useless to them they will only discard you like a cheap whore….


    • I don’t agree with the article as a whole, but I think the author made some good points, and it’s just plain wrong to say that it’s not worth challenging or arguing. Everything is worth arguing.

      First, yes, it is wrong to ignore racism. Racism exists all over the world and we see it in everyday whether in Arab countries or elsewhere.

      I think that every time a difficult issue arises due to the Islamic teachings we tend to label it as “radical” and “fundamentalist” and shout everywhere that Islam isn’t that.

      You can’t be a good Muslim (read, follow ALL Quranic teachings) and be compatible with the world view of human rights. (and btw, this applies to all religions)

      As an example, this aya: http://quran.com/4/34 which particularly says : ” and [finally], strike them ” (them referring to women).
      I guess that most of you label this as fundamentalist/radical islam? but isn’t that the real islam? the quran says it no?


      • Oh, everything is worth challenging. If it weren’t, I wouldn’t publish it.


      • Living in Morocco

        The word you refer to in the aya as “strike” has several meanings, one of which includes “leave” them. Most people like to ignore the idea that there is an alternative to the act of striking either so they can show Islam is a violent religion towards women or so they can in fact strike their wives and think they are justified by the Quran. But, as you can see there is a clear option that allows one to be a good Muslim and be compatible with the world view of human rights.


    • What you’re doing here is guilt by association. You know…if Kacem was a vegetarian, you would probably bring out Hitler’s food preferences.


  3. Good article!
    But, just a small note, the word “migrant”, when used for a human being, generally refers to a person who moves a lot (i.e. a nomad, a gypsy, a perpetual traveler, or the like), or one who has just freshly moved to a another country. The word you’d need there is either “immigrant” or “emigrant”, depending on where you stand.


  4. @Kacem,
    my dear, the issue is not fitting the simplistic description you give here. We feel like you do not live abroad, do you ?

    PS : no need to say that I do not agree at all with the ideas as we can guess from my ironic article


  5. I don’t agree with you, but it was a good attempt to explain your opinion


  6. very nice input. I almost agree with all points tackled in the article. Many points should be taken into account herewith, and actually this article depicts the true image of the Arabs and Muslims in particular being hostile and fanatic to their own culture and religion.
    However ,within the Islamic world, we can vividly notice maltreatment of Arab countries toward Arab immigrants, Saudi Arabia is typical. if people would immigrate to Saudi Arabia for instance, what would happen to those people? For sure they will not have the privileges of the local people, they are not allowed to own a car, they are not allowed to have citizenship, they are not allowed to join college or universities …etc and at last, they will die there like any stranger intruded into a world of not their own..
    What i want to stress here is that the west is giving Arabs either Muslims /non-Muslims privilege they just can’t have in their own countries , the west guarantee for them better lives, equality, freedom, right to vote and elect, and right to even be a president but sadly those Arabs misuse such privileges.
    So Muslims should respect the place where they are hosted and comply to its laws otherwise they should get out of there!


  7. Excellent article!

    Thank YOU Kacem for your efforts and deep insights.
    I am an immigrant from Morocco to the USA and I wholeheartedly agree with your valuable input.
    It is not easy to self criticize nor it is easy to take such powerful insight thus the comments above!
    I felt every word you wrote as if you are writing my thoughts.
    Keep writing!
    All best


    • Dear Miss/Mrs
      Don’t forget that the American and/or European democracy has left behind, in Africa, Asia,.. wells of the human BLOOD. a double-face democracy cares for the local indigenous people and tends to put under the sole all what is not europium and/or American (USA). Democracy of thought, democracy in science is kelp behind the walls of the Western mind…Others POEPLES, different from them have no right to achieve such objective objectives… Americans have the right to kill others while others have no right to defend themselves… defending themselves means committing a crime in the eyes of that WESTERN DEMOCRATIC OPEN MIND.. Klu klax Klan have the right to kill backs in the USA while black Americans have no right to defend their right…Democracy, democracy democracy democracy…swim in it if it is what you talk about … because there is no other notion of it outside this ….


  8. @Hani: What you are saying is completely untrue. I feel strange to defend Saudia Arabia, as I do think it is one of the most mysogynist, repressive state on earth, but the right to propriety, at least for arabs (and also for no arabs, mostly indians, and other eastern asian nationals) is garanteed for no citizens. Many arabs (and no arabs) made their wealth there (the most famous person is maybe late Lebanese billionaire prime minister Rafik Hariri), and Saudia Arabia is ranked second in the world for foreign currency tranfers, and half of the population are foreigners. Before saying absurdities, make a small effort to check for facts.
    As for the article, its process is the one of basic and simplistic racist construction that I thought was long intellectually dismissed as it was extensively used against jews and black people with the results that we all know of: An intellectual and mental process of generalization, standardization and homogenization of a whole bunch of sociologically, culturaly, economically and ethnologically different people with their least common denominator: their religion. For the author, echoing racist propaganda (which follows and mirrors the same framework that was previously applied in the west for a completly different ethnic groups, mainly jews and black people), there is no such a leftist muslim, a right-wing muslim, a liberal muslim, an islamist muslim, a jihadist muslim, a communist muslim, etc. A muslim is summarized to its religion, denying his/her humanity, his/her plurality, his/her inetrests, etc. This process of dehumanization and of construction of an ‘ideal-type’ of muslims, is equally accompagnied by another process of idealization of western societies and polities, as if it is not this particular land of human rights and democracy wich did not invent scientific racism, anti-semitism, genocidal imperialism that we, from time to another, still witness occasional glimpses. I am not trying to depict muslims (when the term, I do repeat, is a conceptual construction, as, at least for me, there is no such a thing as Muslim) as angels, as many muslim societies are suffering economic, political and intellectual backwardness. Particularly, and as many studies show in Europe and North America, globally, muslim population in the west is mostly (in same places overwhemlinly) secular, rejecting what the author calls Shari’a law (this is another story, this concept being used to mean nothing and everything), well educated (in some western countries in North America and North Europe the proportion of ‘muslims’ holding a universty degree is superior to the national average), and relatively (except when you focus on anedoctical events, always showcased in the media) well integrated. It seems to me that the author never travelled to a western country, or, when there, concentrated his attention on the conservative (or fondamentalist) very small minority.


    • To say the writer is echoing racist propaganda is making a strong accusation. Is the article about race? No, it is about Islam and immigration. Is it ‘propaganda’? I don’t think so, it reads like a strong opinion but that’s not in my definition of propaganda. But others will define ‘propaganda’ in another way. The expression of an objection against immigration will get labeled as ‘racist propaganda’ by those who have an interest in immigration. That attitude makes a discussion on the desire for immigration difficult and makes it like a quarrel at the door of a crammed nightclub.

      Wilders and others combine the sentiment against immigration with the fear for Islamic inspired terror to gather a popular following. They mix things up for their own benefit. More or less like those who want to spread Islam combine religion with emigration.

      I think it is fair to say someone like Wilders is a fascist. He and his followers have a lot of sympathy for the way the Moroccan government handles opposition. This fascist succeeded in the monopolization of the anti-immigration position in Holland but that makes the position in itself not fascist – but it is very convenient for those who oppose it. Simply shout: fascist and you’re done.


    • Eh, but Hani is right in that foreigners have virtually no rights in Saudi Arabia. Foreigners brought as slaves domestic workers have literally zero rights and are tied to the whims of their slaveowners bosses, while Westerners are still subject to Saudi’s insane laws. And I think it should go without saying that if only 50% of the population (men) has rights, then humans don’t have rights. Either women and men do, or neither.

      Even Morocco, where I lived relatively freely for two years, would never, ever, accept me as a citizen. In the Arab world, only Syria would, and only if I sat down and passed an Arabic exam, and pledged my allegiance to Baathism (well, sort of…I actually hear it’s not even that difficult).


      • I’m totally with moul on this one, needless to say.

        A minor point, Jillian: Morocco’s citizenship law does provide for naturalisation and I could even provide you with the names of US citizens who have been granted Moroccan citizenship – not many, admittedly, but that’s another matter. Some French and Spaniards have been naturalised as well.


      • Ibn Kafka,

        Well, I’ll be damned, and I stand corrected. Very few though still, I’d imagine, when Morocco can’t manage to fully implement the element of the law that allows for children of Moroccan mothers and non-Moroccan fathers to have citizenship (a mixed family I know still hasn’t secured citizenship for their 14-year old half-Bulgarian half-Moroccan daughter, who has never left Morocco).


      • Ibn Kafka is right. In theory, filiation is not the only way to obtain Moroccan citizenship. However, in practice you need to be best pals with somebody in the palace. Plus, you need to convert to Islam for your application to even be considered.

        What you won’t be told though, is that Moroccan nationality law goes against article 15 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (“No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality”) in the sense that one can’t renounce his or her Moroccan nationality. The bonds of subjecthood are conceived in principle to be both singular and immutable.


      • Ah, Samira, I do know about that part, unfortunately because of a Moroccan friend who was jailed for entering Morocco on his US passport.


      • Holy crap, really? Can you pass along his info to me? (privately, of course)


      • Jillian: I find it really hard to believe that someone holding Moroccan citizenship would be jailed merely for entering the country with a foreign passport – I for one have done precisely that the last fifteen years, not always with a valid Moroccan ID card either, and I could provide you further examples. Unless you personnally witnessed the incident I would suggest that there was probably more to your friend’s case than just travelling to Morocco with a foreign passport.


      • I was not there, but I’ve spoken with his lawyer. In any case, it’s not something I feel comfortable discussing in more detail publicly, but suffice it to say, there was no crime committed.


      • Samira: I never heard that you’d specifically need royal patronage to get naturalised, though of course it wouldn’t harm. What I’ve heard is that it used to be a nightmare, especially for African and Arab applicants, with requests getting bogged down for years (that was before the 2007 revision though, don’t know whether it has changed). It would have more to do with the appalling standards of Moroccan public administration, including graft.

        You do NOT need to convert to Islam to get naturalised, neither according to law or practice (see article 11 of the Code de la nationalité marocaine). One of the most famous persons to be granted naturalisation was the late Moroccan but French-born sociologist Paul Pascon, who was Muslim neither prior to nor after his naturalisation. Again though, I suppose a conversion wouldn’t hurt your application.

        And you’re also wrong when it comes to losing Moroccan citizenship – not only can you request to be freed from it but you may also be stripped of it against your will.

        Some advice to all those of you commenting Moroccan nationality law: how about reading it and knowing about its main provisions before actually commenting it? Here is the French version, as per the 2007 revision granting Moroccan citizenship through the mother as well as the father: http://www.adfm.ma/IMG/pdf_CODE_NATIONALITE_MAROCAINE.pdf . There are more than enough serious rights issues in Morocco for us/you to invent illusory ones.


      • Ibn Kafka:

        I read it when it was news and I stand by what I have written. You distort the reality by holding on to a strictly legalistic view that ignores all other elements. By that token, Moroccans enjoy freedom of speech/religion and women are the equal of men.

        Paul Pascon was born in Morocco and was granted a green passport in the wee hours of the independence. Those were different times.

        There is nothing illusory about the Makhzen aiming to preserve the Islamic character of the country. This is done by violently repressing non-Muslims and limiting citizenship applications to Muslims.

        Step off your ivory tower. Morocco is what it is, not what you want it to be.


      • Are you giving a speech in a Tea Party ralley or something! the guy is confronting you with facts, examples and even giving a link to the citizenship act, but you keep bragging and repeating ad nausea your mantra about what you perceive as reality. Do you ever have a rest from your racist hatered?


      • Jillian, this would boil down to the well-known kafkaesque quality of Moroccan public administration – you have Moroccans born in Morocco out of two Moroccan parents who have trouble getting their papers in order.


    • It seems to me that your “facts” are just hoax promoted in the net! You’ve never been to there, have you?!
      I was not to tell you such truth which you described as “absurdities” unless i didn’t experience that maltreatment by myself. Out of real and true experience in the past, Saudi Arabia proved to me for several times that it is the most racist country in the world and i am sure about it!
      It’s quite true that some people would turn out wealthy out of investment and that is something different but we’re here talking about immigrations! Most of the people don’t go there for investment but rather to have better lives which they find it in the west rather than Saudi Kingdom ruled by some absurd oldies and Islamic fanatic clerics!


    • its process is the one of basic and simplistic racist construction that I thought was long intellectually dismissed as it was extensively used against jews and black people with the results that we all know of

      That’s just silly talk! There’s nothing remotely racist in the article. Kacem is slamming a backwards CULTURE.

      Jews were demonized on racist grounds using lies such as the protocols of the elders of Zion. Muslims…well, they are judged by what they say, what they do, and what’s written in the book they believe is the absolute truth.

      As for blacks, they were enslaved and thought of as an inferior “race” — essentially.

      You know that. You just choose to ignore it.

      “globally, muslim population in the west is mostly (in same places overwhemlinly) secular”

      I keep hearing that argument. Polls in Europe tell another story.

      is equally accompagnied by another process of idealization of western societies and polities

      Western societies and politics? No dummy! What the author is talking about are UNIVERSAL principles.

      well educated (in some western countries in North America and North Europe the proportion of ‘muslims’ holding a universty degree is superior to the national average)

      So what? Terrorist plots are carried out by Muslims who went to the university.

      And just because someone is named Mohammed, doesn’t make him a Muslim. Also, elite scholars are generally against organized religion.

      and relatively (except when you focus on anedoctical events, always showcased in the media) well integrated

      You have got to be kiddin’ me! You have no credibility whatsoever when you say things like this.


      • Discussing with you is like discussing with a stubborn taliban. You have your own truth (that muslim people are evil), dismissed by facts and scientific analysis, but you keep ignoring them because it suits your racist agenda. I live in a western country, and most of the muslim people from different backgrounds (among other people) I interact with everyday are university scholars, students, managers, public servants, workers, etc. They don’t wake up everyday thinking of the ways to destroy or convert the infidel west. They think on how to progress in their career, on new ways to achieve research outcomes, on where to spend their vacations, to party, on how to raise and educate their children, etc. They are human being socialized in a society with rules, codes and laws. I repeat that most of the serious studies show that a great proportion of the muslim population in the west is secular, globalized, etc.


      • You have your own truth (that muslim people are evil), dismissed by facts and scientific analysis

        No, deary. Muslims are seldom evil. Islam, however, is an evil ideology.

        Listen…Germans during the war were regular folks who go to work after kissing their kids. They were courteous, reserved, and they did not disproportionally engage in aggressive behavior on an individual level. However, collectively, they held up an evil ideology. Muslims are the same. They wreck havoc everywhere you look. Among themselves when they disagree on who’s got The Truth. And they collectively engage in conflict (violently or using a legal system that does not conform with the universal declaration of human rights) at the first sign of somebody questioning the validity and morality of their doctrine.

        I don’t hold the truth. And I certainly didn’t receive it in a book. I just observe, listen and read a lot. And I reached the conclusion that both Islam and Muslims unambiguously advocate sexism and censorship in the name of Allah (to name but a few). A tiny minority goes as far as killing indiscriminately in they deity’s name. That’s all I’m saying and there isn’t a single unbiased proper scholar on earth who’ll disagree with that description.

        Sometimes the lie is big that you start to believe it yourself.

        I repeat that most of the serious studies show that a great proportion of the muslim population in the west is secular, globalized, etc.

        Bollocks!

        The Muslim population, be it in the west or in the east, believes the word of God is superior to anything designed by mankind. They also believe Islam is the best societal system ever, and that it will ultimately prevail over secularism. Don’t confuse Muslims and people of Muslim descent!

        Muslims need to take a hard long look in the mirror and urgently reform that religion if it is to survive another generation in the era of free information. So far, the only motivated reformers around are Salafi inspired. The “veil” in the title of the article marvelously portrays the state of denial you’re in.


      • Don’t confuse Muslims and people of Muslim descent!

        A very fair point. But isn’t that exactly what the author has done? Sure seems that way to me.


      • That’s quite a leap. Don’t attribute to Kacem what he hasn’t written.

        From my experience, the people of Muslim descent who don’t call themselves Muslims to some degree are statistically insignificant. Because of assured ostracism and real threats of violent reprisals. There’s a tremendous psychological barrier in that journey and very few people have the intellectual integrity and courage to cross it.

        Look around…Mohameds and Khadijas aren’t denouncing Quranic verses and hadiths. They’re blaming every shortcoming of the Muslim world on the US and co. while shrugging off all the tragedies committed in the name of Allah. Can you not see that?


  9. @Jillian York: Baathism is a secular nationalist pan-arabist (mainly) leftist ideology. The founder of the party is a syrian christian arab nationalist. The ideology was vehemently rejected and strongly combated in wahabiste Saudian Arabia..


    • What’s your point? The only point I was making was that Syria is one of the only, if not the only, Arab country to give full citizenship to foreigners. I was by no means equating Syria to Saudi! The only area in which one could do so is that of restrictions on freedom of speech, and even then, the targets are completely different.


      • Sorry! I was mistaken, thinking you were talking about Saudia Arabia regarding Baathism..


  10. “while Westerners are still subject to Saudi’s insane laws”

    Why should they not be subject to them? This warning shows up on practically every U.S. State Dept. page : “While in a foreign country, a U.S. citizen is subject to that country’s laws and regulations, which sometimes differ significantly from those in the United States and may not afford the protections available to the individual under U.S. law.”


    • I’m not saying they shouldn’t be, I was trying to counter someone who was implying they weren’t.


    • (Comments aren’t threaded enough for me to be able to reply to your later one).

      It was in this comment: http://www.talkmorocco.net/articles/2010/07/muslim-migrants-want-to-hide-behind-a-veil/#comment-1983

      In any case, are you serious? Do you really think that I would think Americans or foreigners shouldn’t have to follow the laws of a sovereign country? Give me a break.


      • From the phrasing you used, it seemed to suggest that, yes.
        Unfortunately, it’s not an uncommon viewpoint.
        And when you said you were responding to an earlier comment,
        I simply asked which one – in a noncombative manner, because
        I wasn’t arguing, I was curious.

        So maybe you should give ME a break.


      • (remind me to add more threading to the comments)

        Apologies, I misinterpreted it.

        In any case, sure, it might be a common viewpoint, but I’ve written about it before as being an absolutely idiotic viewpoint.


      • Thanks – I haven’t seen your writings in that subject
        before, but I’m reasonably familiar with your
        thoughts on the ME and NA, so that’s why I was
        so surprised. Seemed out of character, but mea
        culpa, I misinterpreted it.

        On a separate topic, I find it really difficult to read,
        Much less take seriously, comments that start off with a “my dear” or
        “deary.” (You don’t do this, Jillian, I mean
        other responders of course) Those kind of comments
        are meant to be condescending, and the only
        thing they achieve is to cheapen the discourse.


  11. Jillian,

    Islamophobic racist crowd = NONSENSE.
    Islamophobia is an Islamist made word to create confusion and laugh at Westerners and it is made for the purpose of using people like you who confuse issues and buy this kind of propaganda.

    Show me where such crowed exist. The logical consequence would be hordes of Muslims fleeing and running away from it anywhere it may exist in Western Europe or any where else in the West. I challenge you.

    Adversely, I can show you any day of the week anywhere in the Arab/Islamic world hordes of Muslims lining up in front Western Embassies and Consulates hoping to escape the daily hell of living in the Muslim world and begging to come to the West!

    Do I need to mention the hordes of Christians who have been/being raped, murdered, by Islamists in Darfour Sudan.

    Or, Muslims being slaughtered killed, blown, by Muslims in Iraq, Palestine, Algeria, etc…

    So, please leave Christianity out of it. We don’t have Christians flying planes into building or blowing themselves up to get to heavens and enjoy 72 virgins.

    Today we happen to have a solely Islamic problem!

    You don’t live in Europe and you are not a Moroccan Immigrant so it would be fair to say that you do not have any more experience of such matters.

    I find it very disingenuous on your part to bring up Christianity to the discussion. And anyone who tries to distract from the real issue at hand by trying to compare Christianity to Islam as they both stand today is also very disingenuous, dishonest or simply ignorant.

    Not that I want to defend Christianity but I challenge you to find me one country in the West whose laws allow the stoning of the adulterous women or the killing of those who do not observe the Sabbath.

    While as we speak I happen to be actively involved in trying to save the life of another woman in Iran who was sentenced by Islamic Law to be stoned because she is being accused of adultery. We succeeded to stop her execution and now they want to hang her!

    I will pass on the cutting of hands and marrying/raping children in Saudia and neighboring countries.

    Show me one Christian nation who has such horrendous practices today.

    So comparing Islam to Christianity is not an option here.

    Christianity is 2010 years old Islam is only 1431.
    Christianity had their Martin Luther Islam never had one, but its coming.
    Compare 1431 Christianity and you will get the picture of where Islam stands.

    Islam is not in need of anyone to demonize it. It does a good job at it all by itself. Go read the Koran and the Hadith that Muslim apologetics are so proud of. Please read all of it. Please do not just read the peachy words…and you will have a better idea of what it is…And by the way no need for reading any fancy explanations or justifications. Those are all useless suffice to read the main source: the Koran and the Hadith.

    As to Geert Wilders:

    He has the right to defend his country way of life. The Geert Wilders phenomena would not have existed if event such as the following took place in his country:
    – Van Gogh was slaughtered in the street of Amsterdam while peacefully biking. He was shot more than once and was stabbed. The criminal a young Moroccan of 24 yo. An immigrant who had became islamized! A peaceful young Moroccan who was turned into a savage murderer with one tool: Islam.
    Why? Because Van Gogh made a movie showing a Muslim woman meditating out loud, showing koran written on her body.
    The movie was written by an ex-Muslim who you and others refuse to hear: Ayan Hirshi Ali.
    Add to this event, 9/11, the continual daily threats from Islamist to about anyone and everyone in the West, the beheading of kidnaped journalist alive on TV, etc… The list is too long.
    What do you expect from Geert Wilders? He has the right to be scared to lose his country to Islamists. He has the right to take action and speak up. Why are you labeling him for exercising his rights in his own country?

    We speak of Islam as we know it. We grow up in it, we studied it, we are still trying to patch our many wounds from the abuse we know of it.

    You may not like what we have to say Julian. Because it does not fit the square you have put us in but you have no right to lecture us. Because you simply and apparently have no idea what we are talking about. You seem to think that YOU know better than the rest of us. I say when it comes to this matter you don’t.

    It is not that those of us who hold these views are eager to support the right wingers NO. It is actually the other way around: only the right winger seems to be able hear what we have to say. Perhaps, because it serves their political agendas but they do hear what we have to say and they take it seriously.

    In fact, that is how Hirshi Ali ended up working with and that is also why Wafa Sultan does most of her speaking in right wingers audiences. No body else want to hear what they both have to say. No one likes it. It is not politically correct.

    I find it ironic, that (liberal and lefties) from the Islamic world most of the time get like your above condescending and dismissing attitude from the liberal lefties in the West who don’t seem to be able to get it.

    This reminds me of President Obama who made it a point to take off his shoes and pray with the Muslims!

    I did not come to America to see the US President gently pray with the Muslim crowds. I have seen enough Islamic praying where I come from.

    I came here looking for liberty!

    Wanting to play nice with Islam for whatever reasons anyone in the West might have when applied to politics is incredibly dangerous.


    • What you are saying is nonsense. You are divagating..


    • You don’t live in Europe and you are not a Moroccan Immigrant so it would be fair to say that you do not have any more experience of such matters.

      Neither do you, yet you’re trying to conflate the European situation with that in the United States. A rather large percentage of my friends in the US are Muslim (by birth, anyway) or from Muslim-majority countries and none of them seem to agree with you. So, you think I should trust your judgment over theirs? That’s the implication. That I should accept your experience over theirs for some reason.

      Again, Najat, I don’t deny almost anything of what you’ve said. But your defense of people like Geert Wilders shows that you are all too eager to conflate all Muslims with certain Muslims (call them what you want: Islamists, extremists, whatever), leaving the majority to suffer because of the actions of a few.

      THAT, again, is the issue I have with Kacem’s essay…that it lumps together all Muslims — many of whom just want to live somewhere they deem better than their home country — with a certain category of Muslims. That’s why I use the word Islamophobia: because the very real fear of certain Muslims has turned into a hatred of all Muslims and sometimes all Arabs or even Sikhs, fueled by rhetoric such as that spouted by Geert Wilders.

      Again, Najat, I don’t defend Islam. I am defending human beings.

      (I’m also done with this conversation; I don’t think I’m adding anything here, nor do I think we’re going to reach agreement on it).


    • Najat,

      Please let us not lose sight of the subject-matter here. The point of the matter here is not Islam per se but the rather grotesque assumption that Kacem is making by putting the blame single-handedly on Islam for the failure of integration/assimilation of large populations of Moroccan and Arab émigrés in the West. Which is, to put it bluntly, utter rubbish. And you know what? it speaks of ignorance I’m afraid. I’m sorry. It also shows that the author, with all due respect, knows little about what he’s talking about. And mind you, this is not condescendence. I doubt it the author has ever lived, or if he did, not long enough, in the West or among immigrant populations to have any grasp of the complexity of the problems they face.

      I know you have a lot in your plate about Islam and I’m happy we caught your attention in this issue, but you made quite a number of cheap allegations and ad-hominem attacks there that I had to jump in.

      The flabbergasting assumption that Islam is at the core of the failure of integration of Moroccans, or any other immigrants who happen to be Muslim, with such equivocating and clueless manner is frankly dazzling. And I speak out of personal experience and from an agnostic point of view.

      What do you make of the “hordes” (to borrow your word) of engineers, businessmen and women, consultants, artists, perfectly integrated into their Western societies and yet who haven’t relinqhished an inch of their belief and worshiping practices? Just this morning I went to work and I met a colleague of mine, a Muslim doctor (although he doesn’t necessarily label himself primarily as Muslim) who works with me and we had a little chatter about Kacem’s “theory” and about the turn this discussion is (unfortunately) taking. His response was quite instructive. Let me share it with you. Paraphrasing: “Islam for me is an identity more than anything else. It reminds me of my grandmother, of my childhood and my deceased father. Islam has kept me away from drugs and from the street in the suburbs. Islam kept me going when my father died. Islam helped me when I had doubts about my abilities to achieve my studies and it keeps me want to do good and treat people… all people and be a good citizen. Islam gave me the strenght to stand up in face of adversity and gave me resources to face bigotted racists…”

      Now, don’t get me wrong, I don’t want to play Islam like a violin, and, again speaking from an agnostic perspective, I find it misinformed (at best) to charge Islam with such an obssessive and lilly-livered barrage of detractions.

      This is not news for you but just in case this has slipped passed your memory, there are over a billion Muslims in the world and you just can’t, by any stretch of the imagination, paint them all by the same brush. No religion is monolithic and the religious texts and tradition in Islam, as questionable as some of the precepts might be, are open to interpretation. Fortunately, unlike the black and white reading you’re making of all this, the crushing majority of Muslims keep their religion and the interpretation they make of it quite confined to their personal and private spheres.

      It’s interesting you ask to “leave Christianity out of it”. It wasn’t Jillian but Kacem who brought Islam into the discussion. And once you start bashing one religion, at least have the rectitude to talk about other religions as well. You keep talking about “Christian countries” as opposed to Muslim (majority) countries. Are you really missing the point? On the one hand you’re blaming bad weather on Islam and on the other you seem to imply that Christianity is what defines modern benevolent, human loving Western countries. It’s a bit baffling to tell you the truth.

      Contrary to your claim, Islamophobia is not a frivolous, self-serving concept that Muslims would have invented. Unfortunately it is a reality that goes beyond semantics. What was your reaction when that Egyptian woman was stabbed to death in a courthouse in Germany for no reason other than she was Muslim? What do you think of the ongoing so-called row over the building of a community center in Manhattan by an organisation run by a Muslim cleric and scholar who spent his life advocating compassion and understanding? What do you think of the obsequious support Christian Zionists (right wingers huh!) do provide Israel to crush Muslims, believed to be the followers of Satan?

      It’s ridiculous to consider that people queuing in front of Western embassy’s doors do so to flee Islam. Should we assume that there are no queues outside Western embassies in Kinshasa? Mexico city? Do you really think those “hordes” once they set foot in the US or France stop fasting during the month of Ramadan and forget about prayers and the Quran?

      In Darfur, unless you were reading your favorite “right wing” newspapers, everybody, including NGOs (go visit Médecins Sans Frontières) and even the ICC, admitted that the conflict was ethnically motivated but more accurately was sparked by poverty and the lack of resources in a society where tribalism is predominant. What has Islam got to do with anything?

      I disapprove of countries, all countries that don’t respect universal human rights. I agree with you, no woman, indeed no human being deserves to be put to death in such a cruel and inhumane way as stoning. I condemn autocracies and theocracies and I don’t think it would be a quantum leap to assume that most Muslims in this world agree with that.

      Actually we hear and read what people like Wilders and Hirsi Ali have to say. But they keep conflating the facts and stigmatizing whole populations exactly as you do. They have failed to convince precisely because of their bias and, I suspect, some ulterior motive. People who don’t agree with them are no religious fanatics. Some of them are indeed non believers.

      People who don’t agree with you are not necessarily condescending Najat, nor are they religious fanatics. All points of view are welcome here as long as we respect each other’s views.

      I wonder if you have read the Hadith and the Quran in their entirety as you seem to claim. If if you did, that wouldn’t qualify you as an expert on Islam anyway. I didn’t read neither the Hadith nor the Quran in their entirety, and I don’t feel I should. Actually, I’m pretty sure those who strap bombs around their chests haven’t either read both. So let’s stop playing that I-know-better-than-you game, it’s just non sense.

      Life is much more complex than the black and white view you, and your right wing audience, have of it I’m afraid.

      Yours sincerely.


      • The point of the matter here is not Islam per se but the rather grotesque assumption that Kacem is making by putting the blame single-handedly on Islam for the failure of integration/assimilation of large populations of Moroccan and Arab émigrés in the West. Which is, to put it bluntly, utter rubbish.

        What’s rubbish, dear Hisham, is your giant strawman.

        Kacem can chime in anytime, but I doubt he puts the blame on Islam alone. Yet, anywhere you look at it, this religion is the main obstacle to peaceful coexistence between Muslims and Europeans in Europe. I mean, can’t you not see the damage it has done to Muslim countries? Does it not factor in your worldview?

        Among other things, it’s a fundamentally sexist ideology that’s radically opposed to freedom of speech. Can you not see that? Have you ever read the Quran, the hadith and the prominent Islamic theologians?


    • Dear Najat, please be careful when supporting mr. Wilders for he exploits the fear for Islam for his own extreme rightwing agenda.


  12. Propaganda: : the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person.

    I thought I would define that word (Websters Dictionary) so that everyone could be clear on what it means.

    Kacem lives and walks this life as an atheist living in a Muslim ruled area. I hardly think anything he writes about has anything to do with propaganda, but more with first hand experience by either living it, or encountering people with similar experiences. I am definitely more inclined to listen to someone who is in the middle of all this. Him being young does not matter. I think at his age, Kacem has experienced much much more than many western kids have.

    I like you article Kacem, I think it is clear and knowledgeable.. I for one, will continue to read on. I am always very interested in an atheists inside look at a Muslim nation.

    Keep up the good work!


    • Interesting Terri – I’m an atheist who lived in Morocco but you don’t seem overly concerned with my thoughts.


      • The treatment you get as a visiting gawriya differs from the one Moroccans “of Muslim descent” receive.


      • No doubt my experience is different, but the experiences of those close to me (Moroccans of Muslim descent) are nothing like the author’s either. Of course, I can’t speak for them, but I think it’s rather telling that, while those friends have varying opinions on Islam ranging from atheist/rejection to true believer, none of them speak about it in this manner.


      • Of course, I can’t speak for them, but I think it’s rather telling that, while those friends have varying opinions on Islam ranging from atheist/rejection to true believer, none of them speak about it in this manner.

        And what manner would that be? Non-relativistic objective analysis of the Islamic canon?

        I mean…how blind do you have to be to miss the common thread between repression of the MALI crowd, stoning of adulterers, burning of embassies, hotels bombed in Jordan, “honour” killings, bans on liquor, heritage sexism, expulsion of Christians, persecution of atheists..?

        This is a classic case of denial. Your friends don’t speak their minds because they’re either not well versed in Islamic theology or subconsciously don’t want to add fuel onto a raging inferno.


  13. My friends,

    thank you very much for your very pertinent commentaries! Frankly, I have benefited very much from them, as they’ve opened my eyes to things that I really did not know… but there are things I need to clarify, which you either ignore because you have little knowledge of them, or you simply have no idea about…

    Chatters and arguments over the subject of Islam abounded, and so did explanations and interpretations, which resulted in many sects and currents of mutually opposed objectives and interests, deforming the origin and distorting the essence. Those factions worked then on justifying their ideas, prettifying, integrating their distorted forms into people’s lives, and making them adhere to them and defend them.

    Heidegger, the German philosopher said “the problem of theology is its dependence on interpretation”, and the problem of Islam is its propensity to interpretation following the wishes and interests of some; so when definitive meaningful texts are in contradiction with reality, ideology intervenes to adapt them to the advantage of the individuals living that reality, hence distorting and modifying. This is the case of texts concerning the authors of deeds deemed as crimes deserving punishment. Those “crimes” were categorized by Islam into major or serious crimes known as “Kaba’er”, and minor ones called “Sagha’er”. And given that theological thought is impregnated with threatening and intimidation, and the object of worship is a set of meditational thoughts alluding to the possible existence of something filling a void, it comes with no surprise that the language of fear and the logic of terrorism dominate its discourse, thus the existence of correctional legislations is a necessity that one cannot escape, as a basis for that thought and an assurance of its continuity.

    Indeed, those definitive and meaningful texts comprising all sorts of inhumanities and barbarities present an explicit image of the “barbarity of Islam”, and represent a system that goes back to the middle ages and earlier, with massive executions, or even more horrendous methods like imputation of body parts. On the subject of legal sentences, Mohammad said: “apply Allah’s sentence on close ones and strangers, regardless of criticism” (cited by Ibn Majah), which shows that during the time of Mohammad legal punishments were subject to argument and criticism, but he could find no other pretext than to hide behind “Allah” who has the absolute will and power, and thus “any person who opposed the application of one of his laws would be against Allah’s will”, hence disfiguring reality which refuses such practices that “human” nature despises, representing Allah as the originator of violence, as one could see in his laws that he ordered his followers to execute and to which he wanted his opponents to prostrate. He also admits (implicitly) that his “ideological” message has no ability to convince human beings in general and Muslims in particular, to follow his teachings and respect taboos, without an approach of persecution, intimidation and threatening. This is why I consider that what we see today as new interpretations of Islam do not necessarily represent the true image of it that many want to spread, stating that executions in Iran or the execution of two men and the lashing of a woman in Somalia that many cameras of international agencies have recorded, under the pretext of applying sharia, etc., “are not part of Islam” and that “those” “have nothing to do with our religion”, or any other justifications which intentionally ignore the fact their religion and their prophet have enunciated such laws 14 centuries ago. So, do they want an Islam other than the one endorsed by Muhammad and his companions? A new Islam or an Islam formulated according to their own personal interpretations? Do they not know that they’re considered “infidels” according to religious texts? And that if one of those texts were to be applied they would follow the same fate as the two men who were executed in the suburbs of Mogadishu?

    Finally, I hope that all of those who escaped reality would not get its truths out of their minds, and that they would stop beautifying and coloring the real image of gloominess and hypocrisy.

    Yours sincerely.

    Proof of stoning:

    “Allah sent Muhammad, and sent down the scripture to him. Part of what he sent down was the passage on stoning.
    Umar says, ‘We read it, we were taught it, and we heeded it. The apostle [Muhammad] stoned, and we stoned after him. I fear that in the time to come men will say that they find no mention of stoning in Allah’s book, and thereby go astray in neglecting an ordinance which Allah has sent down.
    Verily, stoning in the book of Allah is a penalty laid on married men and women who commit adultery.”(cited by Albukhari (6830) and Muslim (1691))
    Proof of imputation from the Koran:
    “[As for] the thief, the male and the female, amputate their hands in recompense for what they earned [i.e. committed] as a deterrent [punishment] from Allaah. And Allaah is Exalted in Might and Wise.” [Quran 5:38]
    Lashing, Proof from the Koran:
    “The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.”


  14. Perhaps I can draw commenters’ attention to the latest essay, posted just now by Ahmed T.B.? You might enjoy it.

    http://www.talkmorocco.net/articles/2010/08/seeking-the-higher-ground-in-the-diaspora-human-terrain/


  15. “Morocco’s citizenship law does provide for naturalisation”

    I didn’t know this, either! Do you know any additional details about the qualifications for Moroccan naturalisation, or where I might check? Curious now…


  16. I think we can safely ignore anything that Terri has to say as merely the rantings of an ignorant lunatic.

    This is from her blog that she linked here :

    “But I do HATE Islam! It is destructive, vindictive, and just down right a malicious lying people. There are NO peaceful Muslims, not if they are following the Quran as they should be doing, as Allah demands it. It is the law!
    SO, no, Muslims are NOT peaceful.

    By the way, I am all for no mosques ANYWHERE!! They wanna build a fucking mosque, a place where they teach lying, deception and hate, they can go build it in their own fucking country!”

    It’s ironic that a Cuban immigrant (Terri) is talking about whose country this is.


  17. Moroccan law on nationality is not essential at all. Consider these words of His Majesty the King of Morocco and Leader of the Faithful Mohammed VI:

    We will also step up efforts to secure the lifting of the blockade imposed on our citizens in the Tindouf camps, so that they may exercise their legitimate right to return to their motherland and join their families and relatives, in accordance with the relevant international conventions.

    The people in the Tindouf camps are refugees who fled for the invading Moroccan army. They have never lived under Moroccan rule and they do not have Moroccan passports. They do not live on Moroccan soil and they don’t want to. The Saharawi’s in the Tindouf camps come from a territory that is occupied by Morocco and that’s all they have with Morocco. Still the King of Morocco claims these people as his subjects.
    To have the Moroccan nationality means you are a subject to the Moroccan throne.

    Ofcourse the position of the Moroccan King in this matter is impossible but hey… who is going to tell him?


  18. The makhzen requires children of Moroccan parents to have “Islamic” names before getting them registered. It should be proof enough of the state protecting its Muslim character. Hell, has everybody already forgotten the witch-hunt the MALI movement was subjected to? The expulsion of 130 Christians? The show trial over the publication of a couple of jokes?


  19. Listen Samira, you’re barking up the wrong tree. You made some false assertions on the contents of the Moroccan citizenship law, I pointed them out, end of story as far as I’m concerned. And for the record, you and some other commentators might want to know that the by far largest community applying for Moroccan citizenship are the numerous Algerians living in Morocco, many for several generations. Next to them, you have Arab spouses of Moroccan citizens. Religion is a peripheral concern here, at least for now.


    • How convenient! Since when is religion a peripheral concern in Morocco? It’s central!

      My fiancé has to fake being a Muslim just to get the marriage registered and you want to pretend that non-Muslim foreigners get naturalized? Sheesh…you just don’t know what you are talking about. It’s a scheme to allow the state to consider any children from this union “Muslims” and exercise control over them accordingly. You are desperately trying to hide the extent of religious persecution in Morocco by quoting the laws you like and omitting the damning ones. Classic…

      Say my religion is peaceful or Die!


      • Loosen up, Samira, will you? Since we were discussing (or at least I was) Morocco’s citizenship law, my comment that religion is peripheral related to just that topic.

        Now you’re talking marriage with non-Muslims – incidentally, it seems that you’re changing subject when you’re caught with factual errors, but never mind. You presume that I do not know what I’m talking about – too bad, my brother-in-law had to convert to marry my sister and it was an unpleasant experience for all involved, me included. The prohibition of marriage with non-Muslims is blatantly inconsistent the prohibition of religious discrimination, in my opinion, but this is only peripherally connected to naturalization.

        As for your assertion that I am desperately seeking to hide the extent of religious persecution in Morocco, this would seem to epitomise your difficult relationship with truth, reality and facts – three of my most commented blog posts were the ones on the official hate propaganda against shias in Morocco, the MALI ramadan picknick last year and the expulsion of missionaries this spring. But I suppose one shouldn’t let reality stand in the way of a good argument.

        As for your final greeting – please extend my regards to Pam Geller and Robert Spencer next time you see them – are they still together?


      • I will not loosen up concerning the persecution of Moroccans who don’t subscribe to Islam. That’s precisely what previous generations did, and look where it got us! An untenable situation where such things as eating chewing-gum in Ramadan or a young couple renting a hotel room are illegal in the 21st century. Where women aren’t the equal of their brothers and where expressing criticism about a religion is forbidden. The writing’s on the wall for the domination of this old and crappy ideology on Moroccans. Ironically, the national anthem starts with “cradle of the free” not “cradle of the submitted”.

        I had the displeasure of reading your comments concerning both the MALI movement and the expulsion of Christians, and it is pretty clear that you don’t give a damn about anything more than the letter of the law. Not once have you pondered the spirit in which the UDHR was written or the morality of brainwashing children with Islam and labeling them Muslims! Of course, with your double standards, you think it highly offensive to distribute bibles or talk to Moroccan children about J.C. or the FSM.

        You know that religion is anything but peripheral to the way Morocco grants citizenship. Religion is central to everything happening in this country. Politically, legally and socially. But you want to deceive the audience by playing apologist to Moroccan Islamism…..I know your type…..you complain about details to gain progressisivist cred’, but keep all too quiet about the big picture. Classic….

        Robert Spencer is an idiot and you will not associate me with people of shady character! I wrote the final “greeting” because every time I tell a Muslim about the totalitarian nature of Islam, I get threatened (best case scenario is censorship).

        Allow me to apologize for reality if it stands in the way of your fantasy. We wouldn’t want reality to get ostracized or have a fatwa on its head. That would only lead to more Quran-induced deliriums.


    • Though I do stand corrected regarding the law, I would have to agree, also from experience, that religion is more than merely peripheral when it comes to the application of the law.


  20. In its 2009 international religious freedom report, the U.S. Department of State noted that on April 2, 2009, a Moroccan government spokesman asserted that freedom of religion does not include freedom to choose one’s faith.

    “The fight against Christian proselytizing in accordance with law cannot be considered among human rights abuses,” the Moroccan government spokesman said, “for it is an action aimed at preventing attempts to undermine the country’s immutable religious values. The freedom of belief does not mean conversion to another religion.

    http://www.christianpost.com/article/20100209/moroccan-authorities-raid-bible-study-arrest-christians/index.html

    More reality getting in the way of starry-eyed interpretations of the law. Must be a Robert Spencer conspiracy of sorts…


    • Sorry for missing out on so much fun, but one last

      Samira: Oh, so you find Robert Spencer objectionable? Must be his loud ties I suppose.

      The use of religion as an instrument of power by the makhzen has varied according to the perceived benefits of such an use. Even now, the last few years, the makhzen’s view of evangelist proselytism has gone to relative benevolence to zero-tolerance – the main factor being the change of president in the US. But I suppose a serious discussion of this presupposes a non-dogmatic view of reality.

      Thanks for the chat, fun while it lasted.

      Btw, Talk Morocco has now been honored with a link & citation on the infamous neo-nazi website Stormfront, thanks to this post.


      • Ibn Kafka,

        Thank you for breaking the good news. Are you suggesting it shouldn’t have been published in the first place?


      • Stormfront :

        What’s the link? I searched briefly, but I’d rather not wade through piles of shit. How did you come across it?


      • A link to Stormfront? Well; maybe it is about time to discuss the link between Moroccan / Makhzen / Istiqlal political views and Spanish Franco fascism.


      • The main factor behind the expulsion of Christians from Morocco is Islam.

        The main factor of stuffing homosexuals in prisons is Islam.

        The main factor preventing Moroccans from drinking and eating in public is Islam.

        The main factor behind sexist inheritance laws is Islam.

        But under no circumstance would you ever consider the perspective which does not fit your “religion of peace” dogma. Stick to explanations involving The Great Satan and The Little Satan. It’s either the White House’s fault, the puppet-masters in Tel-Aviv, or the Makhzanian lords you are subjected to.

        BTW, your blog and Stormfront overlap so much in your hatred of Israel that many articles are linked and praised in both. Lucky for you that I recognize an association fallacy when I see one.


      • @Liosliath:

        It’s a pingback.


  21. Samira, I understand what jilian is trying to say. she

    is simply saying that the (Moroccan Muslim

    migrants) sentence had a flare of racism to it. just

    imagin yourself with a name such as samira or me

    or even Kacem who happened to live in Europe(for

    instance). we would be called exactly that:

    (Moroccan Muslim migrants) yet, we don’t adhere

    to the typical muslim migrant ideology. it’s a game

    of word, but I think you get the point. I think that

    Kacem did nothing but tell it as it is. I do agree

    100% with everything mentioned on it. and I also

    understand jilian’s point. I hope this clears the

    air…lol


  22. Some muslims integrate, become productive and europeanized in their outlook, while retaining some of the more harmless traits and traditions of their ancestor’s culture.

    Some muslims don’t…:

    The other side of the coin…


  23. Hisham: Should it have been published here? A bit late for that question now, but Stormfront and like-minded would presumably gladly have provided this post with the requisite hosting arrangements.

    Lioslath: The link? It’s the last of the pungbacks to this post.


  24. Why don’t they deport them back to their home countries?


  25. I thought this was place I could meet Morrocan brothers/sisters to wish them a good ramadan, but I guess I was wrong. This is were Athiest, Christian rights, Yahuud, and all the enemies of islam come to condemn islam to make them feel good.

    On the face of it, the believers and the munafiqs may indeed seem as though they perform the same worship. However, the believers are “those who humble themselves in their prayers” (Al-Mu’minun: 2) and earn the good pleasure of Allah SWT. The munafiqs, on the other hand, are described: “The hypocrites – they think they are over-reaching Allah SWT But He will over-reach them: when they stand up to prayer, they stand without earnestness, to be seen of men, but little do they hold Allah SWT in Rememberance.” (Al-Mu’minun:142) and they are subjected to Allah SWT’s grievous penalty because of their hypocrisy and unfaithfulness. So, a munafiq does not seem to be a non-religious person “from the outside”. Rather, he is a person who says that he believes in Allah SWT and performs most of the acts of worship.

    “In one of the Hadiths of Prophet Muhammad SAW, it is said that “a hypocrite, when he speaks, tells lies, when he promises, breaks his promise. They abandon the believers in a slightest moment of difficulty and side with the adversaries of the believers. Their real character is revealed in times of distress.” “


    • All your Moroccan brothers/sisters are not Muslims, so fuck you and your stupid 7th century Arabian ideology!

      If you were concerned with the welfare of your fellow compatriots, you’d be out in the streets defending the right of non-Muslim Moroccans to drink water without getting beaten by a mob, by the cops and thrown in jail. Instead, and in typical Muslim fashion, you blame Christians and Jews.


      • You are atheist, so you opinion to me means nothing and I’m pretty sure the brothers/sisters from Morroco would feel the same way. Your hate for Islam only makes our faith stronger, when will you understand that. Islam is faith, way of life that you or your cronies can never defeat or stop. What you are doing here when you insult the faith of 99% of Morrocan brothers/sisters is making their faith and the passion they have for Islam stronger. Calling me names, calling my faith names, putting down my faith…that has been tried, and look at the result…muslims are becoming more faithful and islam spreading the west faster than ever.

        The Prophet, peace be upon him, said:

        “Whoever possesses the following three qualities will have the sweetness (delight) of faith:

        1. The one to whom Allah and His Apostle becomes dearer than anything else.

        2. Who loves a person and he loves him only for Allah’s sake.

        3. Who hates to revert to Atheism (disbelief) as he hates to be thrown into the fire.”

        (Hadith in Sahih Al-Bukhari)

        The Prophet, peace be upon him, said,:

        “Religion is very easy and whoever overburdens himself in his religion will not be able to continue in that way.

        So you should not be extremists, but try to be near to perfection and receive the good tidings that you will be rewarded; and gain strength by worshipping in the mornings, the nights.”

        (Hadith in Sahih Al-Bukhari)

        Volume 1, Book 2, Number 10:

        Narrated Abu Musa:

        Some people asked Allah’s Apostle, “Whose Islam is the best? i.e. (Who is a very good Muslim)?” He replied, “One who avoids harming the Muslims with his tongue and hands.”


      • What you call 7th century Idealogy is what brought Morrocans greatness, mercy of Allah(Swt). The Maghreb was great under Islam and achieved greatness under the protection of true religion, but look what they and muslims around the world have become when they tired to mimic and fall for the tricks of Western Idealogy… Nationalism, democracy, capitalism. communism, tribal division. Division and copying idealogies that are not islamic have destroyed muslim societies, that are now being controlled by dictator who are loyal to White house or EU than their own people or Islam. If muslim want to change his/her condition by going to back to the brotherhood that existed under the prophet Mohammed(pbuh) or the brotherhood that existed under the khalifat of Umar Ibn Khattab( may allah be pleased with him) or even the unity and brotherhood that existed the rule of Ummayyed dynasty in the Maghreb and Spain… he or she will be labeled terrorist by the dictator that rule the muslim world and Western World that wants to keep muslims under these divisions.

        So when you ask questions like why none muslims don’t have rights, you should blame the dictators that are protected by the West not the religion of Islam which allowed Christians and jews to worship freely long before Christian Europe tolerate any other religion and faith. When Islam ruled the muslim world the Jews and the Christians had the rights to worship freely without any discrimination… “Lakum deenukum waliya deeni”… You have your religion and I have mine… Simple as that… The discrimination, the hate for the jews and dislike, distrust for Christians only started recently…and can be blamed for colonilism that divided muslim ummah into 1000 of different nations and created the state of Isreal right in the heart of the muslims world. The disease in the muslim ummah is nationalism, tribalism, and cure for that is Islam …not turning for help the same people that want to keep muslims in their current condition… Morroco or Maghreb needs to remember how great it was the time of Ummayed or the west likes to call the Moors of spain…and the same way Turkey need to remember how great , respected and feared they were under the rule of ottoman compared to secularism that has reduced to once a great nation to beggers…

        Islam is not Al qeada or Osama Bin Laden….Islam is message of the prophet Mohammed(pbuh) was given by Allah(SWT) and Sunnah is examples of the prophet Mohammed(pbuh) who was the closest thing to perfection.


      • “What you are doing here when you insult the faith of 99% of Morrocan brothers/sisters”

        I doubt 99% of Moroccans are Muslims. Declaring one’s opposition to Islam is prosecutable, and could be even lethal. So people just shut up.

        The way many Moroccans have been harrassed for my non-faith in the name of Islam should tell you that Atheist is not insulting the faith but the political component of Islam.

        Let me laugh at your glorification of the Moroccan past. I do not cherish a time of slavery, imperialistic wars and tribal mentality.

        Islam is doomed to go the way of the do-do if you don’t restrain it in the public sphere fast.


    • That’s true of this article, Saciid, but there are a number of Muslim commentators on this site who would be happy for your wishes.


  26. Islam is a religion of peace :

    BURNING:

    003.181. 8.50, 17.97 : The penalty for disbelievers is Scorching Fire!
    …Allah’s favorite punishment is burning the kuffar alive.Bukhari:V4B52N260 “Ali burnt some apostates publicly’Ishaq:316 “Following Badr, Muhammad sent a number of raiders with orders to capture some of the Meccans and burn them alive.”Bukha…ri, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 259:Allah’s Apostle sent us in a mission and said, “If you find so-and-so and so-and-so, burn both of them with fire”

    Qur’an (8:12) – “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them” No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.

    Bukhari (52:177) – Allah’s Apostle said, “The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. “O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.”

    Abu Dawud (14:2526) – The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, “There is no god but Allah” and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action; and jihad will be performed continuously since the day Allah sent me as a prophet until the day the last member of my community will fight with the Dajjal (Antichrist)

    Bukhari (8:387) – Allah’s Apostle said, “I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah


  27. To Samira

    Yes 99% of Morrocan brothers/sisters are muslims and many are becoming more restrict to islam, because of individuals who have made attacking Islam their jobs. What you are doing here is making Morrocans and muslims in general dislike Atheist and individuals like you even more.

    Homesexuality is something nobody who believes in god and decency should except as the norm, so why would you condemn Muslims for excepting as norm something God hates. Islam is not faith that compromise its believe to fit in with time like Christianity and Judism, who seem to ignore the teaching of their books when it comes to this subject and many more.


    In surat ash-Sh`ara’, we read: ‘The people of Lot rejected the messengers. Their brother Lot said to them: ‘Will you not fear God? I am to you a messenger worthy of all trust. so fear God and obey me. No reward do I ask of you for it. My reward is only from the Lord the of worlds. Of all the creatures of the world will you approach males, and leave those whom God has created for you as mates? Nay. You are people transgressing all limits.’ They said: ‘If you desist not O Lot, you will surely be cast out!’. He said: ‘I do detest your doings. O my Lord! Deliver me and my family from such things as they do.’ So we delivered him and his family, all except an old woman who lingered behind. The rest we destroyed utterly. We rained down on them a shower; and evil was the shower on those who were admonished.’ (Ash-Sh`ara’: 160-173)”

    The Qur’an also says: ‘And Lot who said to his people: ‘Do you do what is indecent though you see its iniquity? Would you really approach men in your lusts rather than women? You are a people grossly ignorant.’ His people gave no answer but this: ‘Drive out the followers of Lot from our city. They are indeed men who want to be clean and pure.’ But we saved him and his family except his wife: We destined her to be of those who lagged behind. And We raked down on them a shower: and evil was the shower on those who were admonished.’ (An-Naml: 54-58)

    “The main factor behind sexist inheritance laws is Islam.”

    Is this why so many free minded woman in the West are excepting Islam and rejecting Western culture and believes. This Islam is abusive to woman has been tried over over by Western media,femenist groups, people who simply hate islam like you and Ayan Hirsi… But what they ignore is that there are more woman than man converting to islam I woman the West. These woman chose Islam because it gives them more value and freedom. They don’t have to be sex objects, they don’t have to look like models on the tv to be appealing… they excepted Islam as religion, because they don’t have to be sex objects or like certain way to be appreciated, all they have to do is be themself and be true to Allah(SWT)…

    http://www.imamreza.net/eng/imamreza.php?id=6673

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBDJQbp7SWw&p=29711C9E568B26D9&playnext=1&index=73


    • many are becoming more restrict to islam, because of individuals who have made attacking Islam their jobs.

      Yes. The same way many are becoming more aggressive in their criticism of Islam because of individuals who have made attacking universal human rights their jihads.

      Homesexuality is something nobody who believes in god and decency should except as the norm

      Frankly, I don’t mind if you believe in Christ, Allah or Zeus. That’s your own business as long as you don’t impose your ideology on others (state religion qualifies as an imposition). In fact, I would fight for everyone’s right to believe in whatever the hell they want to believe in. From believing in One or many gods to disbelieving in god, and everything in between. That is the crucial difference between you and me.

      To persecute homosexuals or so-called blasphemers is, in my opinion, the height of indecency. Humanist secularism is the only way we can guarantee peaceful coexistence. Otherwise, what’s stopping another group or nation from persecuting muslims?

      Agnostic/atheist nations are more peaceful than other nations. It’s a fact.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdtwTeBPYQA

      Islam is not faith that compromise its believe to fit in with time like Christianity and Judism, who seem to ignore the teaching of their books when it comes to this subject and many more.

      Christianity and Judaism didn’t just “ignore” the teachings of their books out of niceness. They were beaten into it. Repeatedly and forcibly. Over centuries. It’s called the enlightenment (an-nur as opposed to a-dulumat) and is just burgeoning in Muslim countries. So get cracking!


      • To samira

        “To persecute homosexuals or so-called blasphemers is, in my opinion, the height of indecency. Humanist secularism is the only way we can guarantee peaceful coexistence. Otherwise, what’s stopping another group or nation from persecuting muslims?”

        How is not excepting Homosexuality as the norm against indecency when it is against gods laws. Homosexuality is against human decency, because if you except it as something normal you are going against Gods laws and laws of nature. God made Adam(pbuh) and Hawa( may allah be pleased with her) for reason.

        Look at what secularism has achieved in Turkey a nation that was ones a great and protector of Muslim Ummah, but today they have become nothing but a beggers. They have even gone to length of denying our muslim sisters the right to practice their religion and get education. But thanks to Turks becoming more aware of their religion and what the secularist, Atheist are doing to their nation… more and more Turks are becoming more religious and the secularist who have ruined this great nation are loosing ground to majority of Turks who want to go back to their Islamic background and heritage. Secularism will never be excepted by Muslims, because it goes against Gods laws and anything that goes against Gods laws can never be excepted by muslims. There is no prophets to reform Islam, prophet Mohammed(pbuh) the last messenger of God died
        +1400 years ago…We are not Christians or Jews who rewrite their holy books to fit in with the time . We except the holy Quran as it’s and Sunnah of prophet Mohammed(pbuh).

        Muslims are already being persecuted, by their own puppet leaders and the West, so we have no problem with that since it’s god’s will. Nothing in this world happens without the will of god, so we except our faith.

        “Agnostic/atheist nations are more peaceful than other nations. It’s a fact. ”

        Hahaa… Did you forget that the greatest killer the world has ever seen Stallion was Atheist who hated religions and killed at least 40 million of his

        fellow people…. +40 million … Lets not forget the guy in Cambodia, and Communist China. Samira this cheerleading is not gone help you the day of judgement… Allah(Swt) is watching and judging our actions, our iman, and our remembrance and gratitude of one who created you and everything between Heavens and earth…. So pray you go back to the true religion of your parents and grandparent and stop being parrot to the shaytan…

        Asalamo Alykum wa ramatullahi wa barakatu

        Ramadan Karim


      • How is not excepting Homosexuality as the norm against indecency when it is against gods laws. Homosexuality is against human decency, because if you except it as something normal you are going against Gods laws and laws of nature. God made Adam(pbuh) and Hawa( may allah be pleased with her) for reason.

        Oh, grow up already! We’re not asking to stick anything up your wazoo. Just quit criminalizing consensual sexual relations between adults! The “norm” which is being established is one of equality before the law and reciprocity.

        If you think it’s against your god’s law to lay with the same sex, simply don’t do it. If my god tells me that heterosexual sex is wrong, would you accept banning heterosexual acts because it’s against my god’s laws?

        Look at what secularism has achieved in Turkey a nation that was ones a great and protector of Muslim Ummah,

        Exactly! Secularism is the reason Turkey ranks pretty well on the democracy index. It is one of the few majority Muslim country that do not reinforce negative stereotypes about Islam.

        Women are treated as equal in every way since the early 20th century. They can have abortions. They inherit the same way a man does. Etc…etc…

        This is what makes it a great nation. Not war-mongering to spread religion by warfare, or implementation of a random god’s laws.

        They have even gone to length of denying our muslim sisters the right to practice their religion and get education.

        No sir. What they have done is force religion out of the public sphere.

        I don’t subscribe to telling people how they should dress, but if Muslims weren’t so hell-bent on reviving the glorious past of the Ummah, the state probably wouldn’t have had to go to such great lengths to constrain Islamic hegemony and its terrible consequences.

        more and more Turks are becoming more religious and the secularist who have ruined this great nation are loosing ground to majority of Turks who want to go back to their Islamic background and heritage

        You wish! Truth is, Turkish society is more secular today than it has ever been. Just 30 years ago, a tiny minority saw religion as a private matter. That figure tripled in 3 decades.

        More and more Turks are leaving Islam and recognizing their pre-Islamic background and heritage. You simply don’t know what you’re talking about. The scores of the AK party in the elections do effect the relentless shift in Turkish mores and values away from dogma and into the rational realm.

        Secularism will never be excepted by Muslims, because it goes against Gods laws and anything that goes against Gods laws can never be excepted by muslims. There is no prophets to reform Islam, prophet Mohammed(pbuh) the last messenger of God died
        +1400 years ago…We are not Christians or Jews who rewrite their holy books to fit in with the time

        I don’t disagree with that. Hassan 2 very eloquently dispelled the myth of the secular Muslim.

        What is funny, is that I would be accused of spreading Robert Spencer deceitful propaganda if I had written the same thing.

        For every Muslim but the Suffi kind, Islam is as much a political system – if not more! – as it is a spiritual thing. Yet, anyone who says otherwise is accused of being an Islamophobe and what-not.

        Anyway, thank you for your candor. Too many Muslims dodge this crucial issue.

        I read on some anti-Sarkozy Muslim blog yesterday that 72% of French people of Muslim descent don’t have a problem with laicite as a principle. I was shocked! Because the obvious consequence is that the remaining 28% would establish charia if they could. But don’t tell anyone because we don’t want to “stigmatize” the poor Muslims.

        Muslims are already being persecuted, by their own puppet leaders and the West

        Could it possibly be the fact that Islam as practiced today is a backwards ideology incompatible with the modern world? No, never! It’s always the fault of the West, the Zionists, the Evangelists, the gay lobby, Ahmed Reda Benchemsi, Geert Wilders, Voltaire, Kant, and the local educated elite that tries to rule over people with a backwards mentality while doing damage control.

        Sickening! Even my 9-year old daughter understands the concept of responsibility.

        Nothing in this world happens without the will of god

        What kind of twisted god lets children be raped, gased and torn to bits under his watch?

        Don’t tell me. God is magically responsible for the “good things”, but the devil (which he made) is responsible for the “evil bits”.

        Hahaa… Did you forget that the greatest killer the world has ever seen Stallion was Atheist who hated religions and killed at least 40 million

        The Soviet Union had a cult around Stalin. That makes him as bad as any other so-called prophet. Stalin did not kill in the name of atheism. He murdered in the name of the working class.

        So pray you go back to the true religion of your parents and grandparent and stop being parrot to the shaytan…

        Neither my parents nor my grand-parents are Muslims. They’re agnostic atheists.

        But it’s nice to see the tribal Islamic mentality laid bare. Far too many Muslims claim they’re Muslim by choice.


  28. To samira

    “The way many Moroccans have been harrassed for my non-faith in the name of Islam should tell you that Atheist is not insulting the faith but the political component of Islam.”

    Atheist can only insult Islam behind computer screen or fareway, can you insult muslim directly infront of Morrocans who you think you are speaking for.

    “Let me laugh at your glorification of the Moroccan past. I do not cherish a time of slavery, imperialistic wars and tribal mentality.”

    You can laugh all you want, those muslims brought Europe out of the dark ages, and brought a reign of peace to all the lands they ruled… something unheard of that time. All Morrocan muslims should study and know that history and be proud of it.

    http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/ihame/sec5.htm

    “Islam is doomed to go the way of the do-do if you don’t restrain it in the public sphere fast.”

    Hahaa… Do you really think Islam is doomed, look around you…. Muslims are becoming more more more religious, Islam as faith is the fastest growing faith in West, considering its the most hated, misunderstood faith in West thanks to Media owned by Zionist Jews, Christian right and Atheist like yourself. Your hate for islam is only making muslims more faithful to their religion, because they don’t want to become like you….corrupted by the Shaytan and lust for this world.

    I hope you indulge all that this short life offers ….

    Asalamo Alykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu


  29. Youre so cool! I dont suppose Ive learn anything like this before. So good to search out someone with some unique ideas on this subject. realy thanks for beginning this up. this website is something that is wanted on the internet, somebody with just a little originality. helpful job for bringing one thing new to the web!


  30. Unfortunately I have just discovcovered Talk Morocco and already much discussion has gone by.

    I am actually Dutch but have lived and worked in Morocco now for just on 9 years. I am a securitiy consultant, married locally (before moving here), a father AND a Muslim for just over 30 years now.

    I dispize Wilders for a number of reasons, his blatant hatred emeshed with popularist nationalism and his obvious finances and even ammunition coming from the Settler Movement is clear. Hirsi is a classic hypocrit that seeks the limelight first being a beloved of my country until her embarassing antics in parliament annoyed her so she moved to the US and now that country is “the best place on earth” exactly as she claimed my country was.

    Having said this, their words and rhetoric is fueled by some realities that have to be understood. It is not based on imagination and nothing. The reality is often hard to accept for us Muslims because we feel anger at attacks on our faith rather than attacks on attitudes, radicalism and hypocrisies by those whom share our faith (albiet in ways we may not accept).

    The sad reality is that there is a growing radicalism in Europe and the West in general that often exceeds the conservatism and hard-earned freedoms actually won over here in the real and actual Muslim World. The claim that the burka and the niqab is Islamic is disputed over here by the examples enough with Al-Azhar in Cairo banning them and calling them simply as “cultural”, though not banned in countries like Morocco, the fact is that we all accept those that wear them as being now a minority or in some cases as fringe and even with simpathy knowing that the Salafaist community force it upon their wives and daughters. Whilst this view in say here in Morocco is clear, somehow the Muslims in Europe make demands not on the freedom to do as one likes, but demanding it as being Islamic and some push it as being the real and only Islam.

    I visited my old home in Rotterdam last Christmas and some shopkeepers asked for help as the Moroccans dominating that street (and they were Salafis) were demanding that Christmas trees and decorations have to be put away as it gave disrespect. I arrived and told them to put them up and when the ‘delegation’ arrived and made a scene I told them to take a visit to Marjane in Rabat or Casablanca and note the Christmas decorations, blow-up Santas for sale, the alcohol for sale and even the special section in the cold-area selling pork products. I also asked them when they are there to ask the opinions of the 99.9 per cent of Moroccans in Morroco to express the view that in Europe it should be more strict. They understood that their “con” had been exposed and they have been silent ever since.

    That is the point, the radicals are not only having a free-run in the West but they are milking it for all that they can get it, they are claiming to represent us Muslims and there is no counter-balance against this injustice and harmful process EXCEPT the likes of Wilders and Hirsi and that is the problem.

    DHH
    Marrakech


    • The problem you speak of wouldn’t exist if reasonable Muslims (that is, ones who apply the standards of their times and their own moral sense when reading so-called holy texts) such as yourself start speaking up against Islamism and start defending secularism.

      I will remind you that drinking a glass of water in Ramadan in Morocco by a person of Muslim descent is considered a crime. Start by fixing that. Stop tolerating Islamism and the oppression of non-Muslims in the name of Islam! You’ll gain in credibility.


      • I wonder if you actually live in Morocco. Drinking a glass of water by a Muslim here in Morocco is most certainly not a crime.

        It would be frowned upon by some but ignored by most simply because almost all Moroccans do not judge others as radicals or hard-liners do in other countries and secondly that person may be travelling, diabetic or other exempt reason.

        My question is how do you come up with such responses that only work to make things complicated and with the wrong image of the actual reality on the ground

        I am the first one to condemn radicals, hard-liners, in-your-face Islamists. Personally I detest Salafi and Wahhabi varients of Islam and thankfully they are not tolerated very well here in Morocco.

        My problem with writings such as here and comments like your own is that the number one mistake in criticising or demanding change, is getting your facts wrong. Two wrongs never make a right.


  31. Greetings! Very useful advice in this particular article!

    It is the little changes which will make the most important changes.
    Many thanks for sharing!


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