Education & Freedom of Thought

Kacem argues that education must be a space for the pupil to free his or her mind from taboos and ideas taken for granted. Students, he stresses, should be granted “intellectual immunity” and universal humanitarian principles beyond the narrow concepts of belonging.

By

Blogger , performer, author and activist. 99 comments

Thursday, September 30th, 2010


Translated by Hisham from التعليم و حرية الفكر

Freedom of expression is primarily based on freedom of thought. In the Arab and Muslim societies there is only one kind of thought: a religious and authoritarian thought that exploits human beings and tends to reduce them to their smallest common denominator, so that they appear as a multitude of identical copies, unable to criticize and avoiding any form of thinking whether free or oriented. This explains why there isn’t yet freedom of expression in those societies.

As for the forms of free expression that some citizens in the Arab world have attempted to manifest, they are receding and still pretty restricted to an intellectual elite which is the produce of Western influence. This elite, however, tends to shrink considerably with the takeover of the education systems across the region by the ruling oligarchy. This explains the dramatic quantitative and qualitative reduction in the intellectual elite.

As these societies started opening up to the Western world, some leading religious and political figures entered the modernization debate, and despite their calls against the Western civilization, the reality of everyday life made people question the credibility of their anti-Western rhetoric. In the eyes of people it was obvious that the Western civilization could at least achieve some form of happiness in this world. The ideological battle between Socialism and Capitalism during the twentieth century distorted the view and created alliances for one economic doctrine against the other. In their quest to win the ideological war, political movements resorted to every possible tactic including the exploitation of religious ideologies which eventually led to the resurgence of political groups with strong religious reference. Religion and theology then were introduced to the school in order to silence critical thinking among young people and facilitate their subjugation by traditional and religious approaches and also to avoid revolutionary uprisings like the one seen in 1969, which was based on critical thinking that spread during the post-WWII era.

From here, religious curricula at school started to breed and spread. Religious classes were created at secondary schools and universities. Scholarships were created to encourage students and researchers in this field. Murshidates (Religious female guides) and Imams were trained. This plan succeeded in eliminating the liberal movement, and has created armies of young extremists who do not tolerate difference and tend to ignite sedition and inspire hatred against non religious minorities.

In Morocco we should be questioning the education system in order to get rid of the preconceived religious ideas. Education must be a space for the pupil to free his or her mind from taboos. Students should be granted an intellectual immunity and universal humanitarian principles beyond the narrow concepts of belonging.

Education is our bet on future generations. Religious education can only produce the kind of conflicts and strife that we witness in present day, and therefore religion should be separated from education in exchange for promoting scientific, artistic and literary learning. Religion is for worship and should have no place in the classroom. It is misleading to consider religious thought as an academic subject, be it Islamic, Christian or Jewish. Though I do not deny that we ought and must examine all religions impartially and objectively based on comparative studies and whithin the historical contexts of the emergence of every religion. The real sources of terrorism, extremism and backwardness are to be found in those religious school books which encourage violence and an unwavering belief in absolute ideas taken for granted.

Swirly divider

Written by

Translated by Hisham from التعليم و حرية الفكر

Posted on Thursday, September 30th, 2010

  • Share on Twitter
  • Facebook
  • E-mail
  • Google Reader
  • Permalink

99 comments on “Education & Freedom of Thought”

  1. Maybe at some point I will go back and read the whole essay and say: “well maybe you have a point.”
    your idea of what Islam is is falsified.

    I think it’s time for Muslims who are unhappy with the way things work in their country to take any info that they take for granted and as facts, to learn for themselves the truth. act as if you could erase everything that people told you was the way it was just because, and go learn for yourself.

    Islam in fact offers amazing latitude to learn, debate and elevate oneself. But you won’t know it until you get yourself out of this mind frame that tells you your religious education is wrong, therefore your religion is failing you.

    Do not think the west is great! we have our issues in our countries applying Islam on a large scale, but running away from it to an illusion is not a solution. the West is just as messed up and if you lived in a western country you would realize nobody even learns anymore over here. the conformism is even worst. You are either a lawyer, a small business owner or an executive. anything else is failure.

    Reject the education you were given, but in return, learn for yourself, do not reject a whole culture that has been stripped of its credibility by the fanatics, the extremists and those who rejected it as a whole.


    • great essay! i was real excited about it until i read absatou’s comment..amazing that someone could read this and still make it all about religion


    • “@Absatou: “your idea of what Islam is is falsified. ”

      No dear. Islam is what it is. It is the ideology that suppresses freedom in the Muslim world, and increasingly so in Western countries.

      There is a pile of of hadiths (Boukhari!) and Quranic verses attesting Islam opposes gender equality, freedom of expression, freedom of religion, etc.

      There is also what is done in the name of Islam. You see, I never heard anybody defend freedom of speech in the name of Allah. I only hear Muslims threatening violence (and following through) to suppress any ideas or actions they do not like. Be they as innocuous as drinking water in public, demanding that a daughter inherits the same proportion as the son, the freedom of adults to engage in sexual activity, or cartoons.

      Your view of Islam is fantasy and wishful thinking.

      Nobody is rejecting a whole culture! Kacem is rejecting ugly parts of this culture that most other cultures have rejected long long ago. Grosse différence!

      Yes, the West has its issues. But they’re in no way comparable to the issues one has to deal with in Muslim lands. Beyond the right to have a drink of water in public without risking a lynch mob, torture plus jail-time, there’s that uncanny ability to debate of gods, superstitions, sex and so many issues openly. That alone, is a sufficient metric to say that the West is way better.


      • Asalamu Aleikoum wa rahmatolah barakatoho,

        first, thank you for taking your time to answer to my comment.

        In the first part of your comment you say that Islam suppresses freedom then you go on saying the author is not in fact rejecting faith.

        I will just point out that you, like the author apparently made up your mind about what Islam is. All that is left for me to do is direct you to lecturers who hopefully will reestablish the truth about Islam for you. Look for Hisham Al awadi lectures on women in Islam, on Children in Islam, look for Muhammad Al Shareef lectures on the base of knowledge in Islam, the base of Da’wah. Look for the lecture of Bilal Philips on the contemporary issues in the Muslim World.

        by taking distorted facts about Islam you only submit to extremists and grant them more power to claim what they believe in is the truth.
        There is a lot of politics and cultural habits tainting Islam. and unless you educate yourself on your faith, your judgement on what Islam is and what hadith say is worth nothing to someone with knowledge.

        If you disagree with something, before taking a different route, make sure you check facts for yourself. no matter how long it will take you to gather the information, it will bring you much more than following an illusion.
        I hold positions considered unacceptable for a majority of ‘Muslims’, because I have been able to justify them based on the Quran and Sunnah. instead of rejecting my faith as a whole, I went and looked for the truth myself, only basing everything on what the Quran and the Sunnah say, not what some Imam or Moufti says, not on some fatwah or interpretation.

        demystify all the authorities, besides God and allow yourself to ask questions.At the end of the day, the only one we’re accountable to is Allah, not a King or Sheikh or I don’t know who.


      • @Absatou:

        I think we are all well aware of the many different “flavors” of Islam. What matters, is not the odd outlier but the mainstream interpretation.

        Hisham Al awadi, is educated outside of the Muslim world, and as such, has different views from the mainstream. But even he condones the sexist inheritance law given in the Quran, as well as banning people from voicing critical opinions about Allah or Mohammed.

        As for Muhammad Al Shareef, I hope you’re not referring to the Canadian-born man who says that “Jews are cursed” and “nothing can save them from Islam”. But I have a feeling that you are.

        There are Muslims who make Islam all about love, peace and personal belief (as opposed to the political doctrine). But they are a tiny minority that hasn’t got much of the scripture on its side.

        Contrary to Kacem and Fawzi, you start with the postulate that Islam is a brilliant ideology. But facts are stubborn. The crushing majority of Muslims (and religious people in general) are sexist, homophobic and opposed to freedom of speech (among other freedoms).

        Islam is a big hoax. A superstition-filled cult glorifying an egomaniac epileptic warlord.

        If you’re so concerned with how Islam is perceived, I suggest you start militating for the freedoms of Moroccans to have a glass of water in Ramadan, girls to inherit the same as boys, the decriminalization of homosexuality, etc.

        Get enough Muslims in the streets to denounce those things, and you might just change my mind about the dominant streak within Islam. I’m not holding my breath.


      • It is not because Al Awadi has been raised outside of the Muslim world that he has views that are different from the mainstream. He studied Islam from a literal point of view, believe it or not.

        I did not say exactly what were my controversial point of views, but now that you mention it, I am a pro-gray right activist. You can see it on my facebook page or my twitter. It’s not something I fabricated to convince you of anything, lol.
        I am straight but came to support gay rights, because of how disturbing some acts of hate have been. and do you want to know how I came to the conclusion that I could openly support gays? I looked for what Islam said about gays. nowhere in the Quran does it says “kill the gays” just like the Quran says that it is almost impossible for an act of adultery to be proven. YET the mainstream firmly think differently.

        do you get my point? just because the mainstream thinks a certain way doesn’t mean they are right. I could be one against a billion of people and I would still stand firmly by what I believe. I would never abdicate!

        you are right, anybody who wants to have a glass of water during ramadan can do so. ultimately you bear the responsibility of your actions as long as you are not harming anybody.
        The essence of Islam and any faith is based on personal responsibility. you shouldn’t be against the faith as a whole, but against those who want to coerce you into doing what they want.

        there is way too much politics, way too much power struggle laced in Islam. But in reality, Islam is a beautiful thing.

        And you might dislike some things, like some muslims speaking against Israel, but it’s not because it’s their opinion that you should invalidate anything else.
        The Imam Anwar Al Awlaki is one of the best lecturers ever! You will learn clearly about the basics of Islam, but when it comes to Jihad and his point of view on the west, I don’t agree with everything.
        As long as someone is being objective I don’t mind about his personal opinion, his political positions. we might discuss and debate about it, but I won’t shut him down completely.

        can you imagine the type of world we would be living in if we shut down entirely to people just because we don’t share opinions?

        you can fight for rights and individual liberties using Islam. That is the most powerful you can do. go up against what billions of people think (Extremists and Islamophobics put together) using the same tool they are using, showing them that they got it all wrong.

        That is what I do everyday. I never get tired debunking stereotypes and preconceived ideas about Islam that unfortunately even Muslims are assimilating.

        Take the time to learn for yourself! that’s my ultimate advice. learn for yourself!


  2. Ms. Joan SittingBull

    Mind, Brain, and Education is designed for students interested in connecting educational observations, more than ever involved in learning, teaching, and thought process, as well as, emotional development. This connection includes biology and thought processes of science with technology. This has become a new focus in education and public policy in the current Age of education. According to the Harvard Initiative on Mind, Brain, and Behavior (MBB), the plan is strongly interdisciplinary, including not only psychology, pedagogy, and neuroscience, but also philosophy, anthropology, linguistics, computer science, and other relevant disciplines.
    Another source of learning open to the world:
    Mind Training
    The Great Collection
    Geshe Thupten Jinpa, Translator

    Compiled in the fifteenth century, Mind Training: The Great Collection is the earliest anthology of a special genre of Tibetan literature known as “mind training,” or lojong in Tibetan. The principal focus of these texts is the systematic cultivation of such altruistic thoughts and emotions as compassion, love, forbearance, and perseverance. The mind-training teachings are highly revered by the Tibetan people for their pragmatism and down-to-earth advice on coping with the various challenges and hardships that unavoidably characterize everyday human existence.

    “Education, therefore, will mean the enterprise of bringing up human beings to recognize the needs of others and to respond to them favorably. This should be the duty of all who are charged with teaching religion. All God-fearing people should, as a matter of duty, promote that ideology of religion, which is, respecting others and serving them. By condemning the vice of ostentation and hypocrisy as a way of life and, instead, using our wealth and resources rationally, we shall be able to reach meaningful development.” Francis X. Gichuru (Dr. Francis X. Gichuru is Associate Professor and Senior Research Fellow at the Basic Education Resource Centre, Kenyatta University. He has been a Lecturer in the Department of Educational Foundations since 1982. He is a graduate of the University of Na)

    http://africa.peacelink.org/wajibu/articles/art_6906.html

    Without education, zombies or slave labor is created and it lives in the dark ages. Kacem, you are the man.


  3. I can not understand what you mean by freedom of thought and just what religion has to do with it. in fact religion encourages freedom of thought and is the greatest enlightenment of all time. i suspect by freedom of thought you mean freedom to think in a disorganised way, or freedom to exspess bad thoughts, well no one is stopping you , but please dont patronise people and think that they are stupid enough to go along with an out of date philosophy


    • In most cases, religion does not encourage freedom of thought. It does encourage their flock to think only of their teachings, as a form of mind control.

      To each should be their choice, but, for those that choose to not be controlled and have the freedom of thought, they should not be condemned either, for their free thinking.

      Only those who wish they could be thinking freely, differently, would condemn those who are different.

      We are all created different for a reason, to enjoy the billions of beauties of the world, universe and dimensions. One does not know it all and all is not written in the books.

      Peace to all.


    • “in fact religion encourages freedom of thought and is the greatest enlightenment of all time.”

      Religions discourage people from questioning the existence of whatever god/gods it is selling.

      By definition, faith means to believe without sufficient evidence. Critical thought is about questioning everything.

      So I have to disagree with you. Islam is an outdated philosophy that outlived its usefulness. I can’t help it if you find that patronizing. I indeed look down upon cultures that advocate jailing non-fasters and homosexuals. Anything that gets in the way of freedom of speech is dangerous. Let alone when it happens to also advocate institutionalized sexism.


  4. I knew it I was right of all the freedoms you look for freedom of the useless the worthless and the boring. my goodness half the world is not free but you just love the trivial and the wastefull. people are dying and you worry about non fasting who forced you to fast you lie as well as the rest . you are so typical of the haters of freedom who pretend to love freedom by bringing it down to the lowest commen denominater


    • What you’re writing would be funny if it wasn’t tragic!

      You may not know it, but in Morocco, one cannot drink or eat in public during Ramadan. Neither can a person criticize the state religion openly (all other religions are fair-game).

      Yes, a big chunk of the world is not free. And yes, people are dying (technically, we are all dying!). Is that an excuse to keep quiet about the institutionalized repression of freedoms in Morocco? I don’t think so. Moroccans have been silent about the hegemony of Islam and the Arab supremacists in their country for centuries, and it is about time the status quo is challenged. Otherwise, traditions and superstitions will continue to shape politics and society.


  5. well what you are saying is both tragic and funny the so called arab supermaciste are the most persecuted people on the earth at the present time. they live in poverty next to great wealth and even then they have to put up with jealousy from others. regarding eating or drinking while some piouse people arund me are fasting, I would not dream of insulting the general populance by doing that and myself I consider anyone who did that would be considered an unfeeling aggressive person. as to disputing the state you are super nieve if you think that people in the west insult or question the state. most of them are finding it hard to keep their heads above water and live queitly with their heads well down. to busy making a living.


    • “as to disputing the state you are super nieve if you think that people in the west insult or question the state. most of them are finding it hard to keep their heads above water and live queitly with their heads well down. to busy making a living.”

      I am proud to say, (although disagree) that there are huge billboards in many US states saying things about our president I am shocked to hear. I have recently done much cross country driving. They are ignorant and uneducated things, but they are free to say them nonetheless. That is the point you are missing trudy, you are fine to have your opinion, but legal action against someone drinking water is ridiculous, childish and Barbaric…. And you know it… Let alone something violent..


      • Trudy will come around. Anyone who dares to engage in such issues in 2011 and on the web is eventually going to question the doctrine they live by.


  6. god is great and his beauty is beyond imagination and his gifts to us our beyond compare and how the heck you can use his name in the same breath as wrong doing and sin is beyond me.
    jesus peace be upon him and mohamed peace be upon him, were without sin and sent as an example to all mankind and to trivilise the message in mundane talk about deviants behaviuore and whether you can drink water ect is just too silly and childish for words.


  7. @Absatou:

    A non-homophobic Muslim? Good for you! You’re one in a million.

    Unfortunately, Imam Malik, Shafii and other scholars forbade homosexuality and ordained capital punishment for gays.

    The Quran is indeed vague on the issue of homosexuality. Nowhere does it say to slaughter gays. The hadiths condemning homosexuality and calling for punishment are aplenty.

    What is worse, dear Absatou, is that you don’t want to think for yourself about the morality of such issues, but refer to a book written in the 7th century that you consider as The Truth.

    @trudy:

    This is TalkMorocco, not TalkGibberish! We debate issues that concern Morocco. And in this country, Arab supremacism is something people live with everyday. We are forbidden from giving non-Arab names to our children, we are only allowed to publicly praise the god of the Arabs, our official language is Arabic which we only hear in Royal speeches and News Reports.

    You show your true colors when alluding to a “deviant behaviuore[sic]”. All I talked about is freedom of speech, freedom of faith, gender equality in inheritance, drinking water in Ramadan, and decriminalization of homosexuality. Reading your sentence, one might wonder if I was not condoning killing people, torturing puppies and mass-rape.

    If it is silly and childish to denounce the horrible law that puts one in jail for drinking a glass of water or munching on an apple during Ramadan, then silly and childish I am.

    Any god that says to give boys twice the inheritance due to girls can kiss my bottom!


    • Asalamou Aleikoum
      “The hadiths condemning homosexuality and calling for punishment are aplenty.”
      No, the fatwahs condemning and calling for punishments are.
      in fact Islam is very clear about homosexuality. whenever the term “indecency” is used in relation to marriage, adultery or relationship, it is referring to homosexual acts. the guideline is to end the marriage with the wife or try to reason with her.
      now assuming that we have the duty to give da’wah to everybody who needs it, how can we as humans, decide not to give the message to someone because he is gay. worst, what authority gives us the right to cast anybody to hell?
      This is where I base my judgement concerning the condemnation of gays. and there are Imams who have the same point of view.

      All I believe and it is just what Islam says is that we are supposed to stop something bad with our hands, our tongue or our thought. God guides whomever He wants to guide, our responsibility is to transmit and inform. we can’t judge not knowing how our heart can be turned in the split of a second. I’d rather feel compassion in the name of Islam than hate in the so-called name of Islam and leave the rest in the hands of God.

      Just because lies have taken over my religion, I won’t let it go, because as I said in the very beginning, when you learn about Islam without all those external influences, you find that it is valuable. at the same time you can learn and not see anything in it for you and I mean, good for you. whatever rock your boat. I won’t be offended or try to change you.

      I believe I haven’t even judged the original poster. All I’m giving as a final advice to everybody who commented so far are the following:
      – take responsibility for your own choices to believe or not, do not force others to do the same so you can feel it’s right.
      – learn for yourself and never stop learning.
      – none of us detain the truth. all we have is guidelines, so please respect each other’s life choices. if you suspect that they haven’t been informed enough, do it, but don’t force them into anything. It’s up to them to decide what to do of the information you gave them.
      – Bringing change is hard. As a Muslim I consider the whole Ummah as one and I have given myself the exhausting task of educating people on what Islam really is. all I’m saying is maybe before rejecting the whole faith, take the information I’m giving you or directing you to and then decide if you still want to take the same route. It is interesting that when I travel to Morocco and Tunisia, my perception of Islam is very different from what the general opinion thinks. and considering God forbids oppression, I think you have a pretty influent ally on your side :)

      This being said, I wish you all to have a productive week.


      • @Absatou:

        I agree with Samira. There are plenty of hadiths bashing gays. You believe in a liberal Islam, and that’s all well and dandy. The problem is that you’re in a tiny minority of Muslim who don’t mix religion with politics. This, as far as I’m concerned, makes you a revolutionary.

        I don’t need god(s) to judge the morality of certain actions nor do I need belief in supernatural powers to do good. So…instead of trying to educate us miscreants about the wonders of Islam, I suggest you go complain to the Moroccan government (and people!) about their treatment of gays, women, “blasphemers”, non-theists, etc.

        How does that sound?


  8. what about noah if you beleive in gods word you beleive that he loves the good and forgives the bad when you repent but he does not want anything that is bad for us. if you planted a perfect flower would you then surround it with weeds.god loves us and he would never avise us to comit sodomy and thus couse germs to enter our bodies. ifyoudont beleive then you are free to say that and drink your water in your home commit your unhealthy acts too. no one has curtailed your freedom in that way. but you are not free to pass disease onto society or to upset people in the street. if people are fasting it is hard enough for them without a thoughtless idiot munching an apple. kindness is what you keep talking about but you show none of it.


  9. all this nonsense about language my official language is english and we speak it we do not have welsh people and scottish people moaning about it. your hatred of arabs is bordering on the phycotic i suspect its been planted by imperiliasts or your own hatred of healthy life is making you paranoid. allpeople who are in trouble unhapy on drugs or similiar cover their crimes by hating a certain race or blaming some far off figure. it is unrealistic and unsubstanstiated and im sure you can cal your children fred polly of duncan if you like . you are not making sense.


  10. can we all get along?
    Trudy you are obviously angry about something. calm down, you are not making sense anymore lol.

    I would appreciate a feedback from the author of this post, to balance a bit the debate, so we can stop going in circle.


  11. also may i point out that as a million people have been killed in iraq most of them arabs and are beint slowly tortured for the pastsixty years in palastine and blown up in afganhistan and bumped off in yemen and blown to bits in lebanon quite frankly i dont give a stuff about your feeble protestations about water and dirty doings . its criminal to bore people with such nonsense.


  12. no im not angry i am a calm logical person but you are condoning and allowing racism to be perpetuated under the guise of freedom of speech. so i am taking my leave as im choosey about what company i keep.


    • are you serious? did you even read my answers? where did you see me condoning racism.
      we were pretty much on the same page until you went ballistic and started extrapolating.

      hmm it’s whatever I guess -_-


  13. @Trudy: First of all, I am not a racist. On the contrary. I denounce the grip the Arab religion and language has on Morocco.

    Secondly, I owe nothing to people who voluntarily refrain from drinking or eating. If you want to starve yourself, be my guest. But don’t force me to do the same and threaten me with jail if I don’t share the same superstitious beliefs as you do. It is beyond the pale.

    Afghanistan is a shithole because of Islam. And the same applies for Gaza. Little girls are threatened with violence if they talk to boys and their schools are blown up. Men dominate every aspect of public life and women are cornered into the baby-making slot. Freedom of speech is non-existent, and no liberal democratic government seems in sight…because the majority is brainwashed with Islamist propaganda. For every Afghan or Palestinian who suffers at the hands of Americans or Israelis, there are 10 who suffer because of Islam.

    If this does not fit in your world view and enrages you even further, I can’t really help it. Go to Gaza or Afghanistan for some time, and you’ll realize that their plight is nothing more but their own making.

    @Absatou: You see…for every cool-headed liberal Muslim like you, there are ten or more who actually find it highly offensive to ask for the right to drink water during Ramadan on Islamic lands. Or the right of gay people to go about their business. Or the rights of women to inherit the same way as men.

    Because of that, it is increasingly hard to use a small brush when addressing issues about Muslims and Islam. Particularly because your kind is nowhere to be found when it comes to defending the aforementioned rights, but always present anytime someone says something remotely critical of Islam. I don’t know if you can see the hypocrisy (and double-standard) from your perspective, but rest assured that your attitude reeks of it.

    Back on topic, in what world does Islam – or any religion for that matter – encourage critical thinking, skepticism and rational thought? Faith epitomizes the opposite of these things!


    • I admire your dedication, but it’s useless to adress these people with reason. They don’t understand what it means.

      Check this out:

      Between March and June authorities expelled 128 foreign Christians in an effort to purge the country of any foreign Christian influences. In April nearly 7,000 Muslim religious leaders backed the deportations by signing a document describing the work of Christians within Morocco as “moral rape” and “religious terrorism.”

      http://www.christianpost.com/article/20100918/moroccan-convert-serving-15-years-for-his-faith/

      Cue the apologist morons who tell us that we’re not supposed to take the words of the Oulemas, and that Islam is all about freedom of thought. Sheesh…


  14. may god forgive you. blaming the palastinans on their plight . you are deviouse indeed. i think you are agent provocaters and your kind are found in every society breeding hate. in protest marches. in every place where good people gather.but people are no fooled anymore by it and its out of fashion and out of date. your hatred is bigger than your brains. ou tme is numbered this world will be free in spite of you.


  15. toabatsou i was not efering to your goo self and im afraid i can not be as tolerant as you. srry if you misunderstood me on racism but was not abou you.


  16. getting late so my keyboard is knackered say it agin to abatsou i was not refferig to you.


  17. I must say, Kacem, I strongly agree with this sentence, at least in the context of K-12 education: “Religion is for worship and should have no place in the classroom.”


    • Manus Mc Manus

      I think Samira has eloquently described the situation in Morocco and Fawzi has really hit the nail on the head. There is an intrinsic wickedness with fascism , Authoritarianism, and Islam has all the characteristics of an authoritarian ideology. I believe that it is time to look introspectively and stop blaming the others for our failures and backwardness and look seriously at the role of Islam in the public sphere and its relation with the state.


      • Introspection is nice, but it’s not going to happen without freedom of speech. Morocco has policy of making criticisms directed against Allah, Mohamed and their alleged representatives on earth a crime.


  18. Absolutely Fawzi. However, freedom is not a commodity or a gift. This regime is not just going to give it away on a plate to Moroccans without a fight.
    “The secret of happiness is freedom. The secret of freedom is courage.”
    Unfortunately, Allah, Mohamed are an integral instrument in armour of this totalitarian regime. Islam is the perfect ideology for conditioning the populous in making authoritarianism as an organic fundamental value of our culture and national psyche.


  19. the secret of your happyness is decadence dont worry your message is loud and clear however and which way you dress it up in fancy words . ho ho


  20. Manus McManus

    Trudy, religion is a choice, a conviction not a sentence. The role of the state is to manage the country not force a particular brand of faith on its citizens to follow an ideology or selectively choose an official state faith. God is for all mankind including those who do not believe in him. If I happen to believe in another set of beliefs or in another God altogether, it does not make me your enemy. Believe me I have seen more decadence in many Islamic countries than anywhere else.


  21. the role of the state is to keep the peace manage the countrys finances and health and they are no more than servants of the people paid by the people anf if the majority of the people choose to live by a religouse code that is healthy for them it is the duty of the state to obey the people protect the health of the people and utilise the money of the people wisely for the people. regarding minoritys who want to upset the people they have no rights in that circumstance. you speak nonsenseabout being forced to follow any religion becouse you lie about that then you must be an enemy of the people. becouse you do not have their welfare at heart only your own selfish desires. anyone can follow any cobblers faith they chose. pray to a donkey if you wish ,but do not try to force your madness on innoccent people. you have never seen an islamic country becouse one does not exsiste you have seen a filtered version only. plus i doubt that you would ever wish to see one. god does not need you to beleive in him or not. god could destroy the whole earth with one light blow. could change the earth in a second. how silly you are to imagine a great creature of heaven and earth would regard your musings .they are of little importance in the great scheme of things. bt to humans your musingsare important to a degree becouse they are detrimental to the well being of humankind.


  22. “anf if the majority of the people choose to live by a religouse code that is healthy for them it is the duty of the state to obey the people”

    Morons like you always push somebody to confirm Godwin’s law.

    Liberal democracy, the very thing that makes the developed world what it is, is NOT a tyranny of the majority. Tyrannical regimes, theocratic or otherwise, are always shunned by people with half a brain. Don’t believe me? Look up the number of Iranians or Moroccans trying to escape their plight for a dignified life in Europe or America.


  23. Manus McManus

    Trudy,

    I am really struggling to understand your rational here. Firstly, most theocracies if not all are dictatorships. All Islamic countries are totalitarian regimes where the individual has no rights at all, including the right of worship.
    So your argument that the people have a choice in the matter is utterly floored.
    If I choose to eat a sandwich in Ramadan does it make me somebody as you put it “try to force your madness on innocent people”? Or I just happen to have another view of the world and another set of values. I thought the Islamism movement in Morocco has moved on, but unfortunately you have not changed an iota. It is the same warped discourse and the usual populist demagoguery. There is no Islamic county for many reasons. Firstly, it does not exist because there is no demand for it. Moreover, which Islam is the true Islam, Sunni, Shiite, Suffi , the fundamentalist wahaba brand, etc…
    What should we do with the others you do not agree with, or those who want to embrace something else?

    True Islam exists only on the minds of people with a wicked ideology that goes against the human nature. It is a political military ideology disguised as a religion.

    Trudy with all due respect your argument is intellectually corrupt and morally bankrupt.


  24. Manus McManus

    @Fawzi

    The Reductio ad Hitlerum in this instance is not a canard as there is substance and a context behind your proposition. Both are fascist, totalitarian and both beset by evil orthodoxy.


  25. IM not morrocan or even an islamist plus facism is when a minority forces an ideaoligy on the majority.
    so a goverment that serves the people and is with the majority of people both in religion and financialy is hardly faciste. however your wish to seperate the state from the people is faciste. to seperate state and spiritual as if the goverment is not made up of people but some neautral machine. the majority of people like god or have nothing against the idea, like to live cleanly healthily and without the pressure of being a consumer machine.
    being plied with goods by intoxication which usually involves the selling of sex drugs and rock and roll. by a greedy minority hat will stop at nothing to gain control of the peoples purse. by any underhand means and ways. so the state must be spiritual and must be in agreement with the people. becouse humans ar not to be seperated into boxes to suite some decadent greedy minority that wishes to fool them deceive them and manipulate them


  26. ps if you would like to eat in ramadan while some people were fasting i would call you a very spitefull person. who likes to wind people up all in the name of your silky soft freedom. atheist were guilty of killing 50 million people in the 2nd world war. non of the leaders were muslim and todays deaths in the third world are perpetuated by the west has you fully know . diamonds gold and oil are not being robbed by muslims.


  27. Manus McManus

    Trudy

    As your are not Moroccan or Islamist you are forgiven “Father forgive them, for they know not what they do” (Luke 23:34).


  28. regarding morrocans exscaping that is becouse of finance. polish and russians are flocking to western europe for money too, so are hindus hungerians bulgerians ect. nothing to do with religion. I havent spotted many iranians but then your imagination fawzi is a one way train.


  29. morrocans love their king and their traditions they may not be happy with their goverment simply becouse the goverment has not yet understood that more needs doing regarding healthcare and employment and welfare. but they are not stupid . they wil not be wound up by interferring foreigners. with their cobblers freedom chat.


  30. Manus McManus

    You could could have fooled me Trudy. You are not Moroccan or an Islamist. Bless!!
    Keep on the struggle!!!

    3ich al Malik Wa tawabit al Watania

    Happy!!!

    I thought you were a radical , then you became reactionary. I think you are just confused.


  31. no im a conservative radical and i have more in commen with muslims than i do with atheist kuffre or hypocrites as in fact does most of the world , other than they are misled by a minority of hypocrites.


  32. bismilah a raham araheem oudi billa mina shatan regime.


  33. Manus McManus

    What I admire about you Trudy is your honesty and directness. However, you need to work a bit on your tolerance levels.


  34. why should I tolerate untruths. theirs a saying that the kuffre make the truth tired.


  35. Manus McManus

    I have no qualms with Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, or any other school of thought or faith for that matter. It is Islam I find evil my dear. It is that man maid book that I find evil. It took me over 25 years of study and analysis of Islam to find out that it is a satanic cult that encourages murder, hate, rape, slavery , prostitution, pedophilia, and oppression. This is the Anti-God.


  36. you want to go out and buy some garlic failing that put salt around the house your possesed matey.
    when old nick takes you down he will say .i dident tell him to say those things even i would not say those things, i merely whispered in his ear and he was a willing client. but hey your fearless and when in trouble your going to call out for your cat or maybe a dollar bill . hope you never need to.


  37. Manus McManus

    I really do not understand what you are on about, or what is going on in you little world. However, whatever it is I believe you.


  38. You see…all those “moderate” Muslims or Muslim apologists are nowhere to be found every time the Trudys of the world talk.

    But once you say anything remotely critical about Mohammed or the Quran, they’d be on you like flies on a manure truck.

    @Manus: I have qualms with Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and every school of thought that preaches discrimination and opposes secularism. Just because Christians have been forced to evolve doesn’t mean their ideology is any less dangerous than Islam.


  39. whats your obsession with discrimination about you seem to put it above all other things except death.
    like hunger war ect. have you had personel exsperience then, as it seems to be your main gripe. are your muscles not big enough to be with the other men . do you observe rather than participate when with them. you have all the signs of somone not comfortable amongst men. usually religion haters really hate themselves.time to get a grip and stop being paranoid.


  40. @Fawzi:

    Agreed. However, religion is not just an ideology but also a set of cultural values. In the Islamic world religion has a dreadful impact both in the public and private sphere. Islam has never known a reformation. It is as medieval today as it has always been.
    Moreover, the secularisation of many Churches has been happening for a long time and the concept of the state independence and from the Church and its supreme authority in the land is sacred and widely accepted. We can have democracy in Christian Countries but in the Islamic world democracy is just a mean to gain power to abolish it. That is the difference.
    As far as ou friend Trudy now she is coming Reductio ad absurdum


    • I beg to differ. It is religion that is shaped by cultural values and not the other way around. If you want to trash the backwards culture predominant in Morocco, be my guest. We can do it till you’re blue in the face. Same goes if you want to trash the authoritarian anti-freedom nature of Islam. But let’s not get things mixed up and resort to an overly simplistic perspective out of shear laziness (something religious people looove to do!).

      I don’t know if you’ve traveled the world much or not, but let me assure you that authoritarian dangerous Christians are alive and kicking. Go to Poland, Serbia, Brazil and a number of sub-saharian countries if you want to find out the hard way how Christianity is still a divisive and hateful ideology.

      Sure…contemporary Islam is way worse than contemporary Christianity, but I view both as dangers to a global, prosperous and peaceful world.


  41. As far as our friend Trudy is concerned now she is reducing the discussion to Reductio ad absurdum argument.


  42. number one i dont think your morrocans number two i think your a pair of weirdos , who agree with each other o much you should get married. hoho


    • Chnou ze3ma? Limabghach yti9 blkhouza3bilate diyal dine mouk (mouk msselma yak!) machi maghribi? Ina 9anoune 8ada?


  43. Manus McManus

    You are simply absurd my dear. I know your little brain cannot comprehend that some of us cannot buy that Islamic twaddle. You cannot live with the idea that some Moroccans chose freedom rather than slavery. I am a Moroccan and I AM NOT A MUSLIM. Capiche!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


  44. not really they have your sort in every country you are never with anyone . your origines are usually of the wondering kind your not fooling anyone. sir


    • Manus McManus

      Religion has actually convinced people that there’s an invisible man — living in the sky — who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever ’til the end of time! ..But He loves you. – George Carlin

      What a lot of cobbles!!!


  45. Manus McManus

    Alla, Oumi machi msalma, wala khwatati, walayni hadi saha. A lalla ra £andi al Ha9 nakhtar chnou bghit an Aman. Ra kayan al malayin dial lamagharba bhali, ghir khayfin min les barbares ali kaynin fal maghrib!!!


  46. Manus McManus

    Trudy:

    You are so amusing and funny. No, Iam not with charlatans like you, That is all!!!


  47. I really can not believe. before publishing this essay, someone should have corrected it. it contains some mistakes. I mean language mistakes
    @ Kacem El Ghazzali, if you hate Islam, please do not attack it. you can believe in everything you want but please,please, please do not attack /insult others religion.thank you.


    • @bohali:
      Thank you for the comment. What specific mistakes are you referring to?


    • Islam is like any other ideology. It’s not above attacks. If you feel offended, look elsewhere. Nobody is forcing you to read what Kacem writes. I will respect Islam when it respects me back!

      Islam doesn’t need non-Muslims to give it a bad name. Muslims are doing a fantastic job at trashing its reputation. And if that is not enough, there are always the barbaric gems from the Quran and the Hadith.

      And before playing grammar Nazi, you’d better clean up your own post. It’s riddled with punctuation, capitalization, spacing and style mistakes.


      • first off, I did not ask you about problems with Islam. of course you can believe in bokaki if you want but my small brain tells me that it is not good to attack the bokaki religion.period.
        I did not say that I an going to blow the writer off. All I wanted to say is the following : it is very wrong to attack other religions. By the way, I am not a Muslim.
        One thing 4 sure is that a wanna be write brings nothing to the table. This means….


  48. peope attacking islam are like ants attacking a mountain its not logical. people who think god loves you anyway are nuts. he loves you his way becouse he created you. yes he can send you to hell and if yo had any sense you would avoid it more than anything else in your life.


  49. Manus McManus

    Please let’s not de-contextualise the issue. Islam is not like any other religion in the classical sense. It is a comprehensive social and ideological model. Islam is not only going to the mosque and praying five times a day. It is a legal, financial, political, military, spiritual and cultural blueprint for all the followers of this fate. In other words there is not such a thing as a spiritual Islam excluding all other aspects of human activity. Therefore when one attacks the legal system in the Islamic world for its injustices and cruelty, one is implicitly attaching the shariaa legal framework, hence attacking Islam. The same is applicable to all other facets of human development, including freedom of thought and especially education. It is precisely because of the nature of the Islamic faith that spaces for creativity and free thinking are very controlled and limited, if not inexistent. Therefore, the unavoidable question that arises: Is Islam compatible with modernity?


  50. modern ,whats that , somthing that exsist now, that is new to now, modern is, so what. death is, life is, love is , do you mean new death, new life, new love, new cartons of milk. new shirt styles ,new shoes. modern haircuts. new justice. well nothing is really new and its all been done before like we had horses then cars then planes, not new just an improvement on the old.yes islam is an improvement on the old and the new. also the laws you talk about have never been implemented anywhere in the world. but what does exsist is theft on a grand scale, as the bankers and much more. killing on a grande scale. disease on a grande scale. madness on a fairly grande scale ie anti depressants cocain ect are inbibed on a grande scale in these very modern or pretend modern places that you so adore. your dispute with islam is a tired old rag and very un modern.


    • Manus McManus

      The core of Islam is a totalitarian and expansionistic political ideology that dominates the thinking of the individual Muslim. Islam is not a religion of debate.
      Islam is totally incompatible with the universal values of freedom and democracy. It is in many senses the exact opposites.
      Until Islam abandons subjugation of the women, apostasy killing, medieval values of punishment and tribal culture in general and a backward regionalism, suppression of free speech and all notions of jihad and Islamic supremacy, that floods the core of the Muslim reading, it cannot coexist with any other set of values.
      To deny the above will not change Islam, only support the mission of islamic expansion and dominance.
      Islam has benefited from the tolerance and multiculturalistic values that have allowed it to exist worldwide. Let us not be blinded by our natural sense of fairplay and intrinsic human tolerance, with the dangerous nature of this faith.


  51. Manus McManus

    “Modernism as an overall socially progressive trend of thought, that affirms the power of human beings to create, improve, and reshape their environment, with the aid of practical experimentation, scientific knowledge or technology.
    Modernism encouraged the re-examination of every aspect of existence, from commerce to philosophy, with the goal of finding that which was ‘holding back’ progress, and replacing it with new ways of reaching the same end.

    Others focus on Modernism as an aesthetic introspection. This facilitates consideration of specific reactions to the use of technology in The First World War, and anti-technological and nihilistic aspects of the works of diverse thinkers and artists spanning the period from Nietzsche to Samuel Beckett”

    No, it is not your new shirt


  52. Nietzsche and Beckett picket and eliss sounds like a company . in other words who are they who cares and the world has a bilions of people who all have a neeche and a peach an einstein and a berstein.
    I prefer victor hugo myself, but hey ho they are just names from the past plucked out by people who think they are clever. where we differ is not about modernism but who was responsible for it. you say man I say god and then man. you have no answers only questions . I am happy with the answer I found becouse it contains more logic in my opinion. The book you dispute has not been misproved yet by even those that wish they could do so. its not on sale for profit it doesent sell movies . it reveals not conceals . it gets to the point. it shakes down all the poets in the world . cuts to the chase and does not speak down to people from a great clever height. so unless you can find somthing better, be a gentleman and leave it alone.


  53. Debate is not that important and is often misused in fact in so called democratic countrys they use debate to bore everyone to bits and make darn sure that no action is taken. however they dont debate for long about whether to drop bombs on people who they disagree with. no sir that a quick decision. the united nations debates while people starve burn die and boy do they debate. theirs a good living to be made in pointless debate dont you know. no islam or christianity or juidasism dont put such store on debate. only the hypocrites amongst them put it out there as a reason to stall and play mind games. freedom is relative and only debated by those comfortable enough to waste time on it. the rest need the basics like food water clothes ect all which god gave freely as a graciuose gift but man withholds like a miser. why does man do this, becouse he is weak stupid and fearfull and he rejects gods word. which is writen in every plant and every peice of fruit on every tree and everywhere. it says look i gave you this. free, will you not still say thanks. that is his price. such a kind price for such amazing gifts.


    • Thanks, at last now I know who I am really dealing with. An inherent sophist driven by dogma and Ideology without really grasping what they are blabbing about. I am sorry, it is my fault. I thought I was talking to Homo sapiens, but obviously I have made a mistake.


  54. you talk but you never listen your ears are glued up your heart is blocked and your brains in a twist


  55. Freedom is indeed relative. But there’s a giant leap between cultures that value freedom and those that value totalitarianism. I place Islam with the latter.


    • Manus McManus

      Her Her philosophy is crystal clear. As soon as one start going through her comments, it becomes very obvious that she is anti-debate, anti-democracy, anti-freedom, and anti-progress, anti-reforms, anti-logic, anti-facts, anti-modernity,………………………. She is the perfect specimen of an Islamo-Fascist.


  56. tis debate is null and void as no one answers any questions or even has questions you just keep stating an opinion. which means you dont understand the procedure of debate.


  57. Manus McManus

    I just want to ask a question. The concept of intellectual and ideological diversity is a taboo subject in Morocco and only state approved ideologies are allowed to flourish. However, I have observed that many Moroccan groups (mainly in the Diaspora) that do not support the idea of Islamic hegemony as the de facto prevailing religion; seems to exclusively promote their own philosophical position and excluding any others that do not fit their set of values. A good example would be evangelised versus Atheist Moroccans.

    My fear is that we could make the same mistakes of those whose views are shaped by Islamic Orthodoxy of an invidious and potentially lethal nature. I have always supported Traditional Secularism as oppose to aggressive Secular Fundamentalism. As a non-religious individual and a citizen of a democracy my duty is to protect the tenets of a democratic society and not a particular dogma, including Atheism. The focus should be on diversity and corporation between different entities against a fascistic Islam that dismisses or incompatible with the values of democracy and freedom. The danger is Islam not any other set of beliefs that plays the democratic game. Moral and Religious Absolutism should be utterly rejected and not play any part in shaping the political life of any modern progressive democracies.


  58. Manus McManus

    I forgot the question 😉 !!!!!

    Is diversity the solution for a plausible Moroccan Democracy as oppose to the new Secular Fundamentalism we see today in many European countries today?


  59. no, becouse you already have diversity. so your problem is not solved by diversity. only by diluting islam . which may happen anyway.
    I have answered your question. if your problem is islam your solution is to get rid of it or weaken it . you have no problem being an atheist a christian or a jew hindu ect. but you have a problem living amongst muslims. becouse your are adverse to their beleifes.you do not wish to live queitly with your seculareism or atheism. but you want to force it into the arena even though the majority dont wish it. bizzare bizzare.


    • 1- Please read the whole piece.
      2- Try to understand the meaning
      3- Then Answer in context

      Do not just choose a word and go on a tangent. You have a tendency to digress a lot. Take your time and do not rush it. You never know something could click.


  60. @Trudy

    Firstly, you really do not comprehend what I am talking about. Where do you see political diversity in Morocco? You must be leaving on another Galaxy!!!!

    I did not know that Morocco has referendums on issues like this one. Since when Moroccans have the right to make informed decisions without the influence of state propaganda and demagoguery? Yet, again your brain has been playing tricks on you.


  61. Answer to your question . I haved lived in a few countries including morroco. morroco was the one with the least state interference and propoganda.
    The reason their is not much diversity is becouse the population is not diverse. their is not many immigrants from variouse parts of the world.
    regarding informed decisions no one as yet in any country has a people that make informed decisions about goverment policy or have referendums. so just why you want morroco to be special and different from anywhere else is mysteriouse.


    • @Trudy: “I haved lived in a few countries including morroco. morroco was the one with the least state interference and propoganda.”

      Please tell me that you have lived in Iran and Saudi Arabia.

      Else, you’re running the risk of losing what little credibility you had left.


      • “Little credibility”!!!!
        You are so generous Samira. This a classical case when the Absurd becomes Ridiculous.


    • I told you to read the whole piece and understand it first. I am not talking about ethnic diversity; I am talking about political diversity. On the other hand, the Morocco I know is where the state sends military troops that open fire on civilians because they dared protesting about food prices rises. Morocco where tanks and helicopters were being used in city centres and where young men were shot point blank and mass arrests were as a matter of policy. Morocco still cannot account for thousands of people whose remains were never found. So please enough of reactionary rethoric.

      To change the country from an Islamic Absolute Monarchy to a Secular Democratic constitutional Monarchy or even a Republic are constitutional amendments and cannot be decided by in a lifetime of any parliament. Only a referendum can resolve constitutional matters of this magnitude. That is why there were many referendums in Europe about transfer of sovereignty from National parliaments to the European parliament in Brussels


  62. your like a dog with a bone you keep chewing on the same peice. morroco is not a muslim state never has been sice long ago. it is a french protectorate in all but name. if food is a problem and work and travel write to sarkosy you dim wit.


  63. to samira the hater of islam. no germany france belgum britain and irland plus the lovely morroco which you despise so much. would love to live in soudi most asians and americans and british people have a wonderfull life there. iran who knows ive never been there. but im sure the food is good and the people quite nice.


    • ……………and people get beheaded, and women stoned to death, and gays hang, ……………………………………..


  64. Very Nice, the kind of countries I really would like people like you to live in


  65. which one are you then . bets to sure you aint normal


    • Definitely not an uneducated Islamist buffoon, probably on welfare. I know your type just a bunch of parasites on society. Yet, always claiming the moral high ground and ethical or moral goodness. You are as phony as any fascist my dear.


Leave a comment:

You can use the following XHTML tags: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <s> <strike> <strong>

Comment moderation is enabled. Your comment may take some time to appear.


Pingbacks

Swirly cluster